Domestic Dispute Turning Physical. Intervene?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I live in an apartment complex with a several story parking deck for resident's vehicles. As I was packing my car last Friday for a weekend trip, I noticed a couple arguing in the parking deck.

At first, I payed them absolutely no attention. It was none of my business until I noticed a commotion out of the corner of my eye. The man was pulling the woman out of the vehicle by her arm. She struggled back a little bit, but mostly just made gasping noises from the struggle. He then screamed in her face and shook her by the shoulders.

Obviously at this point I was looking directly at him and calling the police... I was also wondering at what point I would be morally obliged to stop this BS. I was also not averting my eyes(while giving his description to 911), so the man might think twice about trying to beat her with me watching.

He glanced at me, lowered his voice, but was obviously still hostile towards her. He did not touch her again, even though they continued arguing. As we drove past to leave, my girlfriend stuck her head out the window and asked her if she needed anything while the man was right there fussing at her. The woman said she was fine in the most polite and calm voice she could muster.

I told my girlfriend to pull over and park where we could still see them in case he went berserk before the cops got there. They continued arguing for about ten minutes in lowered voices and the man never touched her again. He then got in the car and left before the police got there.

After he left, we left. The police didn't show up within that 15 minutes or so. So much for ATLPD. I was armed the whole time. At what point would you personally walk over there and intervene? What are the moral and legal considerations?

 

[Danb1215]

I would say you did all the right things considering the circumstances. In any situation like this call the police immediately (it is in all honesty their job to deal with this and not ours) and quite frankly your presence there will keep the situation from escalating 99% of the time because any man that's going to strike a woman is a coward in the first place.
Legally speaking if you do get physically involved you face a reasonable chance of getting prosecuted for whatever you did to the guy as if the woman weren't even there. i.e. if you punch a man in the face walking down the street for no reason you'd probably wind up with the same charge as if you punched a man in the face who was hitting his wife/girlfriend, the latter would just be easier to defend. That said, the point that you have to step in would be to prevent absolutely imminent rape or murder.

 

[Six]

At what point would you personally walk over there and intervene?

If it became clear someone may die if I don't, even then I'd think about it twice.

In a domestic situation you can be pretty certain that the person you're helping will not press charges against the assailant, and will likely refuse to corroborate your side of the story.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think you handled it pretty well...except for your GF asking about the other girl...calling 911 and be ready to be a great witness. Being an obvious witness, while calling and later when sitting in your car watching theirs' is a great deterrent....as should have been obvious by their reaction. Do not try to intimidate them by stopping your car too close so as to compromise you ability to respond or escape.

I would not have intervened unless either party had displayed a weapon and had begun to use it to harm the other person.

For me, there is no moral consideration. I have long ago made a ethical decision based on experience handling numerous domestic disputes.

From a legal standpoint: you would be over-extending yourself should you interject yourself before the circumstances rise to the level of a serious felony.

From a tactical standpoint: 2 on 2 aren't good odds...and that's assuming that your GF jumps in on your side. The more ideal ratio would be 3:1.

Remember never to draw your gun as a bluff...what are you going to do if they call it?

 

[JohnBiltz]

You might even find yourself fighting her. Trained professionals with the weight of the law are required for this and its probably the hardest thing they do. You did the right thing.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

My plan was to wait for the cops unless he started striking her repeatedly. And I definitely wouldn't have pulled my gun unless I saw a weapon. Just wondering about other opinions.

I wasn't happy about my girlfriend doing that, but she had already said it by the time I realized why she was rolling down the window. It was likely to just provoke him into coming after us!

 

[lions]

You might even find yourself fighting her.

That is a very likely possibility. The guy may be a scumbag, but he is her "man" and she may not want to see him hurt or thrown in jail, even if it is just to keep him from being mad at her. Not a situation I have any desire to get involved in. You did well.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um, more cops die from 'domestics' than from bad things like bank robberies, and if its a bad situation for a cop to intervene, I would venture it would be a worse one for you. Unless there was imminent thereat of grave harm, I would leave it at being a good witness.

 

[Publius1688]

I think you did right.
My rule while carrying is not to intervene unless doing so would unquestionably save the life of a civilian bystander. And even then, I may not. It's not a moral issue, per se, but an issue of protecting myself, my freedom (if I catch a charge from intervention), and by extension, my family's welfare.

 

[omegaflame]

If someone's life is in danger.

 

[Oyeboten]

These things are seldom what they apepar to be.

In fact, better to ask the guy if he is okay, or if he would like any help, than to ask the gal whom he appears to be aggressing on.

Women are infinitely better at mental cruelty than men are...they will play that to the hilt, trying to antagonize the man to loose composure, to where then they can claim to be the victim...while secretly 'winning' the strategic game they are playing.

This is very common.


Usually, she has been messing with his head cruelly for weeks, months, years, flirting it up with strangers or worse, dropping little psychological 'bombs' in various ways, flirting with others in front of him, stealing his dough, playing around, damaging his property fening helplessness or making it into an issue if it mattered to him, criticising him and so on, sleeping with his best friend, whatever, trying to get him to finally loose composure, then she feel like she 'won', and also she can claim to be the victim if he gets mad.


Personally, I have zero interest to ever intervene or call cops or anything else for seemingly 'domestic' quarrels, even if they are actually onto being violent, and I could care less what the parties do to eachother...even if probably I would feel sorriest for the guy, and for how he let himself get played that far into it.

I have seen too many evolve, to not know how the games is played, and who the game is played on.

Best thing a man can do, is turn on his heel and walk at the first sign of any of the traditional 'BS' from her.

Thus nicely abandoning the escelating road to Hell she is tempting him into, and which she is insisting on for power-plays she believes she can 'win' ( even if of course it seems to make both of them loose).

If he is at fault, and she is innocent, she should have or would have, walked a lot sooner than to have things evolve into 'fighting'.


No thanks...too messy for me, and, she will merely do the same stuff to the next guy anyway...so, Oye...


Men like to feel chivalrous...and, in these things, it's a sucker's bet...probably how she lured him in for the kill in the first place.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I am not suggesting you never come to the aid of another, but so many of these disputes are actually mutual combat between the participants, and you have no knowledge of the events that transpired beforehand, that it is best to avoid direct intervention. This does not mean to do nothing. You have a cell phone - use it to call the police and observe and report.

 

[armoredman]

Wow, Oyeboten, I would have to assume you had one HECK of a bad relationship in the past! Having worked with incarcerated sex offenders in the past, I would have to say your view is definately in the minority. There are those spouses, male and femakle, who can play the mental cruelty game, but the majority of these situations are the fault of the attacker. Domestic violence is a terrible thing to both sides.
I agree with what the OP did, definately the right way, be observant, call PD. I don't know what the laws in your state say about defense of a third person; AZ states anything you could legally do to defend yourself can be lawfully used to prevent the same crimes, (murder, rape, sexual assalu, etc.) to a third person. Also we have no civil liability for a justified act.
Well done, sir, I hope these people get thier lives under control soon, before any more damage is done.

 

[Six]

Oyeboten, I will only say that I think that deciding who is the good guy and who is the bad guy based on anything but their observed actions is a poor strategy.

Gender, race, age, fitness, dress etc should not be deciding factors.

 

[basicblur]

Women are infinitely better at mental cruelty than men are...they will play that to the hilt, trying to antagonize the man to loose composure, to where then they can claim to be the victim...while secretly 'winning' the strategic game they are playing.

Wow, Oyeboten, I would have to assume you had one HECK of a bad relationship in the past! Having worked with incarcerated sex offenders in the past, I would have to say your view is definately in the minority.

It probably is in the minority, and that's one reason the male is going to automatically be assumed to be the instigator. Sounds like what Oyeboten is describing is dealing with a person with mental problems (been there, done that!), and it's awfully easy to manipulate the law if one is so inclined.
There seems to be a lot of it going around lately-mebbe it's something in the water?

Did you never see the Chris Rock video on how to deal with the police?
"He got weed, he got weed"!

 

[strambo]

You might even find yourself fighting her.

And be prepared to have her lie and say you attacked both of them...

Unless he is causing severe (life, limb, eyesight) harm...I'd do what you did or less (given he wasn't even hitting her).

 

[FourteenMiles]

Oyeboten, I will only say that I think that deciding who is the good guy and who is the bad guy based on anything but their observed actions is a poor strategy.

Actually Oyeboten was giving a scenario to illustrate that it is not always easy to tell who is the victim, regardless of actions observed. While you are arguing to take everything at face value. Poor strategy what?

He had a good point, unfortunatley the bitterness in his post made it sound just short of "she probably deserved it!"

 

[Six]

That's not at all what I said. I said nothing about taking things at face value - because you can't do that without preconceived notions one way or the other.

Actual, observed, actions. Not guesses.

 

[Ike R]

I have once interviened in a domestic dispute between a formerly very close friend, at her urgeing, and that is the reason I put the word formerly there.

Once me and a neighbor stopped a "rape" in an abandoned lot near our apartments, we had just returned from the h2h class we where teaching. I left and pursued the "subject" hopeing to see him enter a dwelling or vehicle, friend stayed with the "victim" to render aid. Victim walked off and told my friend that the "subject" owed her money. Turned out she was a prostitute and when the Local PD showed up it was funny as it was Officer Carmen from the crimestoppers segment of the news and we actually ended up on her short that night lol. The prostitute, still in sight walking down the road was arrested for haveing crack on her when O. Carmen went to talk to her.

So no, I don't do Domestic Disturbances unless its a female relative, I may call the cops, but unless either pulled a weapon I wouldn't say a word to them. I would still respond to a call of rape or general distressing screams, especially if I thought it was a child.

 

[shockwave]

Usually, she has been messing with his head cruelly for weeks

Not "usually." Usually the guy is an abusive dirtbag and the woman has been degraded into a Stockholm Syndrome victim.

But the important thing you need to know is that the guy can always walk away. It doesn't matter what the woman does. The guy can can roll down his sleeves and walk. Anytime.

So when the guy starts getting physical, slapping the woman around, it is his fault. Always. Nobody forces him to make a fist, nobody makes him get violent. To suggest otherwise is pathological.

Regarding this situation, I'd say the OP did pretty good. Just being a witness calms things down. These are some of the most dangerous situations in the book, and extreme caution is warranted.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Let's bear in mind that this is Strategies and Tactics, not guess who's fault it was.

 

[Oyeboten]

No bitterness here, merely mentioning what over the years is a summary reduction of some of my own observations of the World around me...and selecting some sidelights which I found to have been occuring with some of the many people and couples I have known.


Anyway, too messy for me...


And everyone will have a different imaginary scene in their head which they will insist on or defend, so...


Let's just say, I am in no rush to judgement...and, if I saw serious violence or it's seeming imminence with a quarreling couple, I might intervene if I felt I could do so constructively and with regard to both parties' present compromise, favoring neither of them, since I have no understanding of their history or of the continuity of events...nor even if their seeming violent or aggressive involvement is merely their taste in foreplay.

I do not have a cell phone.

 

[uspJ]

I think you did all that you should have done. As many have said before any kind of domestic dispute can erupt quickly. These kinds of disputes can also shift their focus from them to you should you try to intervene.

The only thing I would have done differently would have been to not let my girlfriend ask if she needed any assistance. This could have caused the man to turn his aggression towards you or your girlfriend. If she was not obviously physically injured or yelling for help I would not have approached. Tears wipe away, nerves settle and relationships come and go. Do not get involved in these kinds of disputes if you can avoid it or unless serious injury seems imminent.

All in all, you did a good job.

 

[luigi]

At what point would you personally walk over there and intervene?

I wouldn't

 

[Diggers]

You did just what you should have Rusty. Nice work.

Really, you involved yourself way more then most people would of by making it obvious you noticed what was going on and calling 911.

About physically intervening?....Well, I have to ask, would you intervene if you didn't have a gun with you, or would you just wait for the police to show up?