Double barrel or Pump

[Al LaVodka]

Isn't the best kind of shotgun the one you have? Your favorite, reliable friend? It matters not if it loads from the breech, or from beneath. Isn't that rule 1 of shotgunning? To have a shotgun? Kinda puts the issue to rest, eh?

Um, no.

The one you HAVE for a selected purpose is the one you CHOSE to buy, practice with, become familiar with, etc. This leads almost all men to a trusted pump shotgun and has for a hundred years. Your retiring-the-subject is based on the rule of "something is better than nothing" and its corollary, "whatever (often cheap) gun I happen to own is the best."

The OP's "question" was from the rule of "I think I'll tell everyone my sxs shotgun is my choice for HD by pretending to get THEIR opinions, look for affirmation, get defensive when it doesn't happen, and hope anyone helps identify any underwhelming advantages of a sxs." His early comment about jerking a .357 outta his pajamas if he needed more shots shoulda ended this thread alone IMO...

Al

 

[ArmedBear]

Maybe his pajamas have belt loops.

The more I shoot shotguns, the more I hate pumps. Repeaters in general are the most problematic shotguns. The OP notwithstanding, I might choose a SxS myself, but only a top-quality one with a single mechanical trigger (no inertia!) and auto ejectors. I don't know of any such animal on the market today, so I'm back to a pump.

 

[Dee]

No you owe it to your family to have a plan first, and that should be safety for them first and foremost.

Do you think that can reasonably be achieved with bullets flying through your house?

You only have 1 door and no windows?

Well I do have plans based on different scenarios, however none of them include jumping or trying to climb down a window that in my case is between 10-30 ft off of the ground. Also we would have to cross living areas to get to any of the exterior doors in my house which is likely where the BG's would be anyway. Plus there may likely be at least one BG outside ready to take pot shots at you as you try and flee your house.

The safest place in my house is the masterbath closet, it would be a priority for me to get my wife and son there, wife armed w/ pistol. I would remain in the masterbed ready w/ shotgun.

 

[oneounceload]

AB - IIRC, SKB has mechanical triggers, at least on some guns like their 28 gauge. Inertia triggers can be switched to mechanical - it's done all the time for folks who shoot sub-gauge skeet sets so the 410 will work.

 

[ArmedBear]

I was thinking of HD guns, but you're right, one could cut down a field gun. I don't know of any "coach guns" being sold today, that I'd actually trust for HD.

Most SKBs have inertia triggers, but you're right, one can modify any quality gun to have mechanicals. Their SxS guns haven't been made for a long time, but they are available. Actually, right now, nobody's making SKBs at all.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Jake - I have answer to your question -

If a SxS is honestly, actually, literally more effective than a pump, then why aren't more (or any) professionals using them on their jobs?

Because they have a different definition of Job. Based on your argument all local PD's should be carrying MP5s and granades. I don't think a sxs would be very affective going house to house in Iraq, but for a home owner locked with his familly in a bedroom with the police on the phone, as sxs can be a formidable weapon and means of immediate defense. As I mentioned before we are talking about home defense and not civil war, police action or an attack by a team of special forces trained hired help.

A snub nose .38 can be an affective tool for HD but it's also not a primary carry piece for law enforement or military. Same goes for Walther PPK , or a Ruger 10/22. Recently I've read in the "Armed Citizen" section of the American Rifleman magazine, people have fended off attackers with 22 caliber rifles. No joke

 

[Al LaVodka]

Jake - I have answer to your question -



Because they have a different definition of Job. Based on your argument all local PD's should be carrying MP5s and granades. I don't think a sxs would be very affective going house to house in Iraq, but for a home owner locked with his familly in a bedroom with the police on the phone, as sxs can be a formidable weapon and means of immediate defense. As I mentioned before we are talking about home defense and not civil war, police action or an attack by a team of special forces trained hired help.

A snub nose .38 can be an affective tool for HD but it's also not a primary carry piece for law enforement or military. Same goes for Walther PPK , or a Ruger 10/22. Recently I've read in the "Armed Citizen" section of the American Rifleman magazine, people have fended off attackers with 22 caliber rifles. No joke

Stating police would carry MP5's and grenades is a misrepresentation intended to mislead the readers, or, sorry Lovesbeer, you're just not logical. Obviously they could and don't so they SHOULDN'T be carrying those. They DO have pump-shotguns (and even semi-autos) and so you are implying civilians don't need 'em. That we should be content with less. Relegated to mere civilian status and intimating we should know our place. Whose side are you on? Gonna ban private ownership of pump-actions next!?

Do you think the local police are usually doing a whole lot more than YOU might need to do at home in the worst cases? I would argue that we, citizens, have to be able to do a whole lot more than them. From defending one's own person and family's lives real-time, the most basic natural right, to defending our nation. Police do neither! How do you know what people may have to do in defense of their home and hearth, and why would you take a position that they should arm themselves for the least intensive encounter? This is so misguided. Let's have no more red-herrings please launched by a disingenuous poster. Again, if you have a choice, why would you not choose the state-of-the-art for a broader range of situations vs. "better-than-nothing" or get defensive about what limiting obsolete technology you happen to already own? Of course people have defended themselves w/a .22 -- but none didn't wish they had something bigger and better at that moment.

This is simply not an intellectually honest thread anymore IMO.

Al

 

[berettashotgun]

My choices for a home defense shotgun.

Beretta AL2/301/302/303
Gosh these are reliable shotguns.
Unbelievably reliable.
Mechanically identical in almost every aspect.
The 1200/1201 FP is pretty nice - just fractures your collarbone while shooting from the floor.:banghead:

I'd never choose a pump over a double unless the 3rd and 4th shot were super critical.
A double makes a nice spear to the face.

I'm just not that proficient with a pump.
Zero confidence and little practice.
A 24" barreled 20ga. SxS or O/U with some hevishot BB would be pretty much perfect.
Skeet and Skeet choke is a must.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Vodka – I don’t understand your first sentence at all. My point was that if police carry pumps and not sxs cause they are more affective, then don’t we have other arms that are more effective than a pump? Local police don’t carry full autos, but they have them near by with special trained teams if needed. Military carry full autos cause they readily need them.
I never implied civilians should not use pumps and I do agree they can be very effective. But saying that pump is more effective than a sxs shouldn’t we first define effective?
To then reach over the top and assume that I’m a gun banner is, well, way over the top. Who’s team I’m on is an inappropriate question cause I don’t know which team you’re on. It’s also a pointless question. I’ll take the highroad and not address the last sentence in your 2nd paragraph.
To answer your last question, why do you assume that a pump is most effective when you don’t even know who I am? I’ve not yet met a professional, or read an article written by a professional who would claim that there is 1 most effective gun for everyone. Each person based on training, living conditions, comfort, physical strength, etc has to choice their own “Best” gun.
Finally, to have an intellectual conversation its best to listen openly and not jump to conclusions and prejudices about a poster you’ve never met.

 

[berettashotgun]

Anyone here ever heard of the """private message""" system.
Never liked my mommy hanging out dirty laundry when I was still wetting the bed..

 

[BullfrogKen]

I’ve not yet met a professional, or read an article written by a professional who would claim that there is 1 most effective gun for everyone. Each person based on training, living conditions, comfort, physical strength, etc has to choice their own “Best” gun.

Which is pretty much what I've been saying as well.

Side by sides are much easier to get proficient with and master than a repeating shotgun. They have their advantages. More capacity is not always better.


To each his own.

 

[joeyl]

Imho, there's a lot of variables involved in choosing pump over sxs or any weapon for hd. I used to keep my 1200 defender by my bed. I'm practiced enough to feel comfortable to avoid short cycling it, my three kids almost(youngest is 17) my wife not a chance. She understands guns and the why. Just not into going to the range. I bought a stoeger coach gun in 12gauge. Between the kids and I we've shot it enough to be comfortable with operating it and the reliability of it. Although my wife hasn't shot it, shes done a little bit of drilling with it (picking it up, sliding the safety off, pointing it and pulling the triggers). I just added a limbsaver to it and picked up some remington reduced recoil buck. For backup I have an old well practiced by all, 38. Live in an area of single family houses on small (35x125') lots, very well lit at night. Short of shtf i feel comfortable with what I keep out, very easy to use, even under extreme stress. Also I live in Crook County, like it or not I've got to consider possible consequences of a shooting (hoping that it NEVER occurs), with Asa's more willing to go after the law abiding citizen than the armed thugs walking with virtual impunity in the inner city neighborhoods. While very lethal my sxs can be described as a replica of an antique old west outdated cowboy relic ;-) paired with an equally outdated revolver made in the early 1950's. Unfortunately one must take into account a jury pool of locals. If I lived in a more rural area or area with more common sense laws, I might equip myself otherwise. But as I said it's the different circumstances that determine that. Don't mean to be so long winded.

 

[ishida]

Maybe his pajamas have belt loops.

The more I shoot shotguns, the more I hate pumps. Repeaters in general are the most problematic shotguns. The OP notwithstanding, I might choose a SxS myself, but only a top-quality one with a single mechanical trigger (no inertia!) and auto ejectors. I don't know of any such animal on the market today, so I'm back to a pump.

I don't know if they still make them, or clones of them, but I'm sure you could find an old Fox (Savage) BSE Model H. I have a 20 gauge version, and it seems to meet those requirements. And it's quite hardy. Your only problem would be that all of them that I've seen have long barrels.

 

[tominct]

I'll likely get flamed for this, but anyway... Let me state up front that I KNOW this is a training issue, not an equipment problem.
Almost all of my shooting is done with semi-auto pistols and rifles. I've gotten used to just pulling the trigger for the next shot. Several times, while hunting, I've simply forgotten to rack the forearm on my M500 for a second shot, and missed the bird because of that. (For some odd reason, when shooting a bolt rifle, I have no problems with cycling the bolt.)

Enter the Fox BST 20 gauge, 18 1/2" barrels and single trigger. Picked it up on a whim one day, and I like the way it points and handles. Most importantly, in a HD situation, I know that I can get off 2 quick shots without consciously working the action.
I'd prefer it to have external hammers, but for me it works.

Backed up by a 1911.

 

[NMGonzo]

Almost all of my shooting is done with semi-auto pistols and rifles.

My Mosin broke!

Oh ... (cycle) ... nevermind.

 

[Balog]

What advantage does a pump have over a SxS? Capacity. That's it. If capacity is all you care about, a Saiga is the only legitimate choice. Yet no one ever insults the people who chose pumps, despite their lower capacity. Why is that, do you think?

Different mission profiles call for different weapons. Beat cops don't carry the same weapons as SWAT. Regular grunts don't carry the same weapons as special forces. Home owners don't carry the same weapons as any of the above. I fail to see why this is a difficult concept.

This is simply not an intellectually honest thread anymore IMO.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is intellectually dishonest."

 

[Al LaVodka]

What advantage does a pump have over a SxS? Capacity. That's it. If capacity is all you care about, a Saiga is the only legitimate choice. Yet no one ever insults the people who chose pumps, despite their lower capacity. Why is that, do you think?

Different mission profiles call for different weapons. Beat cops don't carry the same weapons as SWAT. Regular grunts don't carry the same weapons as special forces. Home owners don't carry the same weapons as any of the above. I fail to see why this is a difficult concept.



"Anyone who disagrees with me is intellectually dishonest."

I'm not insulting anyone, however, opinions are not facts, and as good a job as you've done intentionally or unintentionally confusing the two, I won't ignore the misinformation. I'll use your own slight-of-hand example of the problem that's developed here: you're ignoring the question of the thread and building some moral equivalence or even superiority to relying on an obsolete action, and, you've got a built-into-your-response-but-undisclosed assumption that the sxs is the optimal choice for ANYthing! This is only true if the, um, "mission profile" is for the SASS or a 19th C. re-enactment (where such 20th C. Hollywood/GW1&2 cliched terms are not used). One may choose to ignore that but the facts are that almost everybody uses pump-action shotguns for almost all defense applications the world over, from Main St. to the Company Street, for assorted reasons and that, comparatively, almost no-one uses sxs' primarily for anything except the occassional niche hunt. These are not debateable. Odd decision making and unrealistic posts are.

So, apparently there are some difficult concepts here and I hope I've been of some assistance in sorting them out.

Al

PS: With the hope of not starting a ComBlock defensive dialogue, people who choose a pump-action over a Saiga are not criticized because the skeptic would look even sillier than people who choose sxs shotguns for HD. People choose reliable pump-actions when it really counts...

 

[Balog]

You may believe that the extra magzine capacity of a pump is more important that being shorter, lighter weight, operable one handed, redundancy in case of mechanical failure etc but it is wildly intellectually dishonest to pretend like your criteria is the only valid one.

 

[Milkmaster]

Sounds like it has been beaten to death...I'm outa here.

 

[BullfrogKen]

They DO have pump-shotguns (and even semi-autos) and so you are implying civilians don't need 'em. That we should be content with less. Relegated to mere civilian status and intimating we should know our place. Whose side are you on? Gonna ban private ownership of pump-actions next!?

Do you think the local police are usually doing a whole lot more than YOU might need to do at home in the worst cases? I would argue that we, citizens, have to be able to do a whole lot more than them. From defending one's own person and family's lives real-time, the most basic natural right, to defending our nation. Police do neither! How do you know what people may have to do in defense of their home and hearth, and why would you take a position that they should arm themselves for the least intensive encounter? This is so misguided. Let's have no more red-herrings please launched by a disingenuous poster.

Al, back off on the personal attacks, buddy.


If you have a disagreement over opinion, fine. Disagree over opinion. Insinuating someone who disagrees with your opinion is a gun-grabber is not fine.

No one even mildly suggested anything about relegating certain classes of firearms as exclusive to policing or military agencies. There was no need to throw that attack into your argument.


Behave.

 

[MCgunner]

A study in how to fubar a discussion of the pros and cons of this platform or that.

The more I shoot shotguns, the more I hate pumps. Repeaters in general are the most problematic shotguns. The OP notwithstanding, I might choose a SxS myself, but only a top-quality one with a single mechanical trigger (no inertia!) and auto ejectors. I don't know of any such animal on the market today, so I'm back to a pump.

I was lookin' at Academy's site the other day and noticed the new Yildiz SxS has a selective single trigger and automatic ejectors. the trigger is probably inertial, though. I thought to myself....HMMMMMM. LOL! But, really, for field, I've always preferred double triggers and am quite used to 'em and I like the extractors because I pocket my empties when I'm at my buddy's hunting dove. His dad does not like empties on the ground, says the cows will eat 'em. But, ejectors would be desirable in a defensive situation and you can, after all, hold your hand over the breech so that the empties don't shoot out of the gun, for hunting. But, I have two NY reloads by the bed, generally, so if I find myself needed more rounds, highly doubtful, I do have options.

That Yildiz would be fun, but really, I don't need to be buying another shotgun, let alone another SxS. LOL! I don't have an O/U, yet, but I was kinda waitin' on that one for my financial situation to get better so I could buy something from Browning or Ruger or something in that higher price category. Until then, I really need to stick with what I've got, LOL.