Double Barrel vs. Bolt Rifle

[HankB]

I've yet to see a .450/577 double or repeater - not saying that SOMEONE didn't make them, but they're not very common. Most doubles were made for cartridges with a gentle taper to facilitate extraction. I'd think the bottleneck .450/577 might cause problems in a double. (Early ammo even caused problems in the Martini.)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A whole lot of British officers had doubles and repeaters built in this round so they could use service ammo though....he might have gotten a used one.

That wasn't legal in India. If this rifle is a .450-577 it was almost certainly made for hunting in Africa.

 

[Preacherman]

Vern, "legality" didn't apply to British officers in India. They could have rifles in any caliber they wanted. You're quite right that civilians could not own rifles in a service caliber: but these rifles were probably not built for a civilian owner, so the military caliber would have been perfectly legal. Also, after the widespread adoption of the .303, IIRC, the earlier blackpowder cartridges were "de-classified" as being service caliber, so that civilians could legally own firearms chambered for them.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

"legality" didn't apply to British officers in India. They could have rifles in any caliber they wanted. You're quite right that civilians could not own rifles in a service caliber: but these rifles were probably not built for a civilian owner, so the military caliber would have been perfectly legal. Also, after the widespread adoption of the .303, IIRC, the earlier blackpowder cartridges were "de-classified" as being service caliber, so that civilians could legally own firearms chambered for them.

Actually, legally did apply to British officers -- gunmakers could not ship a gun to India in a prohibited caliber, regardless of who ordered it. Now, some high ranking officers or officials may have illegally brought a gun with them, but they would have been subject to subtle pressure, if found out -- and they would definitely have been found out.

"Legalization" of a cartridge didn't happen -- because bandits, rebels, and so on used obsolete weapons for decades after the Army dropped them.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not just the .577-.450; NO "450" calibre rifle or ammunition was allowed in India and the Sudan at the time. The Government was worried that insurrectionists might somehow adapt the ammo or the components to stolen Martinis; or vice versa if a safari gun should go astray. Leading to the .470, .465, and .475 doubles. Typical gun controller's attitude.

Pondoro had a sporting Martini in .577-.450 that he doted on until it was lost; I think by a hippo overturning his boat.

 

[Preacherman]

Again, British officers were NOT subject to the same caliber restrictions as Indian citizens. I have an extensive collection of colonial-era military biographies, etc., and many of them describe how officers either brought out with them, or had made and sent out to them, rifles and howdah pistols in military calibers. Some of them simply used military-issue rifles for their big game hunting, but none of them seem to have had the slightest difficulty getting their own personal firearms into the country. Now, it may well have been illegal for them to supply those weapons to an Indian citizen: but many of them sold their personal weapons to other officers when they returned home.

Perhaps this regulation was a "paper tiger": official-sounding, but honored more in the breach than in the observance.

 

[pete f]

I asked my father to refresh my memory of the pair of doubles, He too believes them to be 450/577. HOWEVER, the guns were indian made copies of H&H Made for the regimental commader of some regiment stationed in DUMDUM India about the start of the first WW or a bit later. Aparently they were sold upon his return to india in the 20's bought by my friends father sometime in the late 30's. To quote my dad, A lot of the guns were copied by the indians because a best grade gun in london would be the same as a few months salary of an officer, whereas an identical gun made in India would be a couple weeks pay. My father says that when went to visit the mission field in the early fifties, elephant back hunts were still the prefered way to kill tigers in the swamps. I will try to get picks of the guns and pics of the trophy pics they have when they get back to the USA