Double Tap, Triple Tap, or Until Empty
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OldCavSoldier
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General rules I teach to folks taking the CCW class:
If you have to shoot, shoot while moving to cover...one round center of mass per assailant....
If you reach cover and the assailants are still coming at you, one round center of mass per assailant...
If revolver, immediately reload (with speedloader) when empty. If bottom feeder, combat reload a fresh mag when reach cover or immediately if empty....
Also, shoot the minimum number of rounds it takes to stop the threat. NOT kill the threat. STOP the threat.
MOST goblins are gonna high-tail it as soon as you bust your first cap, unless they are high........
If you have to shoot, shoot while moving to cover...one round center of mass per assailant....
If you reach cover and the assailants are still coming at you, one round center of mass per assailant...
If revolver, immediately reload (with speedloader) when empty. If bottom feeder, combat reload a fresh mag when reach cover or immediately if empty....
Also, shoot the minimum number of rounds it takes to stop the threat. NOT kill the threat. STOP the threat.
MOST goblins are gonna high-tail it as soon as you bust your first cap, unless they are high........
jad0110
Member
And if you are able to identify/pick out a clear leader/instigator in the pack and you aren't under even more dire/immediate threat from someone closer, make sure he gets the first one. Easier said than done and certainly not always doable, true, but popping the leader may well cause the followers to turn away. Putting a round or two into a "follower" may not deter the instigator(s) in the pack as well.
Yes, I know, this isn't realistic in every scenario. But it is something to at least consider as a possibility.
Hardballing
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For me, training or not, first shots are ALWAYS double tap, center mass, on closest or main threat. While not strictly necessary, yelling, "Stop, drop your weapon" is a GREAT idea in that you never know who is hearing/witnessing, or even taping the acts in question.
The earlier suggestion about shooting on the move, while seeking cover, is also a great one imo.
There really is no other "advice" other than shoot to stop the threat imo. Life and the scenarios of self defense, particularly with handguns, is so varied that this is usually sufficient directions.
And one final thought, practice failure drills, even with wheelguns. If it can go wrong, it will.
Just my .02.
Tim
The earlier suggestion about shooting on the move, while seeking cover, is also a great one imo.
There really is no other "advice" other than shoot to stop the threat imo. Life and the scenarios of self defense, particularly with handguns, is so varied that this is usually sufficient directions.
And one final thought, practice failure drills, even with wheelguns. If it can go wrong, it will.
Just my .02.
Tim
In any situation your first response should be to take cover. Moving makes it harder for the BG to hit you and gives you time to get your gun out.
How many shots it will take is very situational. Someone could remain on their feet and surrender. Or they could fall down, and then keep shooting at you!
This is why, in a one on one encounter, you shoot until the threat stops offering a threat.
I was trained for it was 2 placed shoots for each target
The down side to this is number 2 and 3 just standing there watching you shoot number 1. If you have a revolver you will run out of ammo after number 3.
One shot per target and then do it over if needed is the best way to train. It will suit whatever handgun you have.
How many shots it will take is very situational. Someone could remain on their feet and surrender. Or they could fall down, and then keep shooting at you!
This is why, in a one on one encounter, you shoot until the threat stops offering a threat.
I was trained for it was 2 placed shoots for each target
The down side to this is number 2 and 3 just standing there watching you shoot number 1. If you have a revolver you will run out of ammo after number 3.
One shot per target and then do it over if needed is the best way to train. It will suit whatever handgun you have.
jojo200517
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I always figured if i'm going to die this wouldn't be much of a concern as to how much trouble i'm in. I get called inhumane but me and my loved ones come first, then i'll worry about others.
First this deserves a sig, I think it'll join mine.
Yeah and you never know if number 2 doesn't go bang I'm sure number 1 did a pretty dang good job and might buy me enough time. I carry the good Hornady 230 grain +p, Wouldn't want anyone to suffer from injuries inflicted due to cheapo ammo.
As for how many times to shoot, eh until they stop squirming or I run out of ammo, I don't plan on running out of ammo with my .45 if 31 shots don't get it done, it should get me to my vehicle where there's another 10 rd mag for it and some emm "heavier" firepower.
Edit: As for taking cover I'm absolutely for that if you have any, if not I'm for pushing forward if possible physically and mentally. One the attacker will not likely expect it, and two shot accuracy will most likely improve due to closing distance. Just my theory, hope i'm never forced to try it out.
Who is to say we aren't missing the first threat? Or if we are really unlucky the first and second threat? You address the threat percieved to be the most severe, when there is another threat that becomes more severe, or the formerly most severe threat degrades to a lesser threat, you switch to the new most severe. Just my opinion
You address the threat percieved to be the most severe, when there is another threat that becomes more severe, or the formerly most severe threat degrades to a lesser threat, you switch to the new most severe
This is easy to do if there is one guy with a shotgun and the others have ice picks or they are attacking you in a line formation but isn't so easy in real life. If 2 or more BGs are attacking you, you don't want to waste a lot of time evaluating the biggest threat. You want your training to simple in order to make it is easy if the situation arises. You don't want to waste time thinking "#2 has a 45, #1 has a 22, and #3 a 2x4".
This is easy to do if there is one guy with a shotgun and the others have ice picks or they are attacking you in a line formation but isn't so easy in real life. If 2 or more BGs are attacking you, you don't want to waste a lot of time evaluating the biggest threat. You want your training to simple in order to make it is easy if the situation arises. You don't want to waste time thinking "#2 has a 45, #1 has a 22, and #3 a 2x4".
Snubster
Member
I agree!
I also agree--though even better if you can move, draw and fire while running to cover.
possum
Member
if you are moving latterally this will help you more so than moving toward or away form the enemy.
you are/ will be responsible for every round that leaves your gun, therefore running and shooting at the sametime might not be the best advise.
I make it a point to not train myself into any one box. Emptying a mag into one target is great if that target is one's only opponent. One shot per target, then returning to each target for seconds/thirds, is the opposite extreme.
To some extent, the element of surprise might allow one to put multiple shots into the first target before one's other opponents get their stuff together.
Whatever one does, keep thinking, and keep moving, so multiple opponents have to keep adjusting to changing circumstances.
To some extent, the element of surprise might allow one to put multiple shots into the first target before one's other opponents get their stuff together.
Whatever one does, keep thinking, and keep moving, so multiple opponents have to keep adjusting to changing circumstances.
You don't spend a lot of time assessing which threat is the greatest, you make a split second decision and go with it and hope for the best, fight your way through it. One threat will stick out more than the others, for all kinds of possible reasons; closer, bigger, more agressive, position relative to your orientation etc. It will be fairly obvious. Not everyone involved in the confrontation is going to be equally threatening at any given moment.
Maybe a better way to put it would be address the most immediate threat, and when that threat is no longer the most immediate, for whatever reason, you address the new most immediate threat. Confrontations are fluid and constantly in motion. That means priorities of defense are also constantly changing.
You do all this while also moving to put yourself in the most advantagous position possible.
Maybe a better way to put it would be address the most immediate threat, and when that threat is no longer the most immediate, for whatever reason, you address the new most immediate threat. Confrontations are fluid and constantly in motion. That means priorities of defense are also constantly changing.
You do all this while also moving to put yourself in the most advantagous position possible.
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Use cover if possible.
The best advice I have heard recently is "shoot until the target changes shape" ie goes from vertical to horizontal. For those who practice regularly your target should be high center of mass ie from the bottom of the rib cage and up. For those who do not practice, center of mass is a larger target but not as effective.
Immediately scan for other threats.
Practice shooting while moving. Most threats are not going to stand still and neither should you.
While it would be nice and civilized to shoot once or twice and give the threat a chance to surrender that could easily get you killed.
Just MHO
The best advice I have heard recently is "shoot until the target changes shape" ie goes from vertical to horizontal. For those who practice regularly your target should be high center of mass ie from the bottom of the rib cage and up. For those who do not practice, center of mass is a larger target but not as effective.
Immediately scan for other threats.
Practice shooting while moving. Most threats are not going to stand still and neither should you.
While it would be nice and civilized to shoot once or twice and give the threat a chance to surrender that could easily get you killed.
Just MHO
Well in Ohio, if you're an average Joe with a CC, you better not shoot after the threat has been stopped. You will face charges. If you hit an innocent, you will face charges. If the threat is stopped and is running away and you shoot again, face charges. I say, aim for center of mass, take your shots diliberate and carefully, and retreat if possible as quickly as you can, without putting yourself at risk. Your 5 shot .38 will cause panic on the threat, do great damage and give you options to defend yourself and make a gracefull retreat. It's not meant to win the battle. Speed loading & accurate shooting at multiple threats take a lot of training and practice, and average Joe's "generally" don't fit that category. My 2 cents. Oh, and the 2 cents of the Ohio CC training course and CC state laws.
oldfool
Member
I don't know what is right
I practice some of this some of that, weekly
I don't carry anything with more than 7 rounds, no reloads
I mostly shoot stuff (revolvers) that only hold six
I can get off six in two seconds, with a hit or two on a 15 oz bottle at 12-15 yards, and at least three close misses, on average (whatever that means)
same for 3 DTs in 3 seconds, which is what I practice by far the most ( I get hits often as not on 2nd round vs 1st, it's pretty much just random)
because it's fun
PS
What I figure I am most likely to do in a real "it" situation is just freeze and poopy in my panties
the "good news" is, I probably won't hit any innocents
mostly I put a lot of serious effort into not finding out
I practice some of this some of that, weekly
I don't carry anything with more than 7 rounds, no reloads
I mostly shoot stuff (revolvers) that only hold six
I can get off six in two seconds, with a hit or two on a 15 oz bottle at 12-15 yards, and at least three close misses, on average (whatever that means)
same for 3 DTs in 3 seconds, which is what I practice by far the most ( I get hits often as not on 2nd round vs 1st, it's pretty much just random)
because it's fun
PS
What I figure I am most likely to do in a real "it" situation is just freeze and poopy in my panties
the "good news" is, I probably won't hit any innocents
mostly I put a lot of serious effort into not finding out
NotSoFast
Member
If it's more than one, I'm for firing once at each one, then returning to #1 for a followup if needed, then #2, then #3, etc. That way I'm not wasting ammo if I don't need to on an already stopped opponent but have it available for one who hasn't stopped yet.
Just my way, not necessarily the best, and definitely not the only way.
Chuck
Just my way, not necessarily the best, and definitely not the only way.
Chuck
The Bushmaster
Member
Empty the magazine into him, put your foot on his neck to hold him down, reload and begin again...
Depends on how many targets you have to deal with...
Depends on how many targets you have to deal with...
In Ohio... If you where to kill your Assailant at that point, you could be prosecuted. I’m not sure about the laws in your state but Ohio Laws are clear on this matter. Shoot to stop. If the Assailant is down and no longer a threat you must stop shooting. Frankly, I wouldn’t want to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life. I would shoot to kill. Double tap…
easyg
Member
I practice putting three right in the upper chest.
Why three you ask?
Because I have personally seen way too many folks who were shot once or twice, but who were still very much alive and kick'n.
Why three you ask?
Because I have personally seen way too many folks who were shot once or twice, but who were still very much alive and kick'n.
mljdeckard
Member
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Remember that handguns are fundamentally inadequate for self-defense. Don't plan on your first hit stopping anyone.
When you are fighting for your life, keep shooting until:
A: You run out of ammo,
B: The target disappears from view,
C: The threat has stopped their actions.
When you are fighting for your life, keep shooting until:
A: You run out of ammo,
B: The target disappears from view,
C: The threat has stopped their actions.
Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Not until you shoot X number of shots or he dies or cries uncle. Shoot until he no longer presents a threat.
When it comes to multiple hostiles I would not sit there and take time to double or triple tap every one of them. By the time you are done multi-tapping the first or second guy one of them is going to have the time to shoot you. My tactic is one shot per person, and repeat as necessary to neutralize all threats. Keep in mind that threats with closest priority most often should be dealt with first.
You have to judge every situation independently. Don't train yourself into a box, so to speak.
When it comes to multiple hostiles I would not sit there and take time to double or triple tap every one of them. By the time you are done multi-tapping the first or second guy one of them is going to have the time to shoot you. My tactic is one shot per person, and repeat as necessary to neutralize all threats. Keep in mind that threats with closest priority most often should be dealt with first.
You have to judge every situation independently. Don't train yourself into a box, so to speak.
mljdeckard
Member
^^ Exactly. It is unlikely that you will have to use your gun defensively at all. But you still carry it, right? It is unlikely that your gun will malfunction when you are fighting, but we still practice that non-stop. The whole idea behind carrying is to think ahead and plan for what you will do if something really bad happens. When it happens in real life, you will be better off if you have practiced something similar and primed your mind to think outside the box.
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