There has been some revisionism of late that underscores the point that if you shoot somebody, they don't necessarily fall down and DRT. But to call handguns "fundamentally inadequate" for SD is pushing the meme a bit too far. If I have to engage somebody hand-to-hand, I'm trained for it, but I'd much prefer they have several bullet holes in them first.
Double Tap, Triple Tap, or Until Empty
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There has been some revisionism of late that underscores the point that if you shoot somebody, they don't necessarily fall down and DRT. But to call handguns "fundamentally inadequate" for SD is pushing the meme a bit too far. If I have to engage somebody hand-to-hand, I'm trained for it, but I'd much prefer they have several bullet holes in them first.
easyg
Member
It only takes a fraction of a second to double or triple tap once you've already got the target in your sights.
But acquiring new targets can take much more time.
mljdeckard
Member
Handguns are fundamentally inadequate for personal defense. Just because they are better than nothing doesn't make them any better. Most people hit by handgun will RUN AWAY. If they can run away, they can also continue to attack you. This is not stopping the threat. The reason we spend so much time and resources to make better JHPs for handguns is that they all suck. If I ever have time to get to something besides my sidearm, I won't use it.
I have never shot a person but I have killed many deer. I've seen them run for a hundred yards with a bullet thru their heart. I've heard reliable reports of people being shot with fatal wounds who still manage to shoot back. The "Boarding House" rule makes sense.
P.S. Thanks to all who have responded with thoughtful and informative ideas and opinions. I can't beleive somebody hasn't tried to start a caliber war.
P.S. Thanks to all who have responded with thoughtful and informative ideas and opinions. I can't beleive somebody hasn't tried to start a caliber war.
David E
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Fractions add up. Depending how fast/good you are, maybe to a full second. Plenty of time for the other guy to yank the trigger while pointing his gun at you.
Which is all the more reason to start acquiring the second ( or third) target sooner!
If I had 3 targets @ 5 yds spaced about 1 foot between their shoulders, all representing an equal threat, my transition times would be in the .20-.25 range. This is faster than the double taps of most folks. It's a good idea to go out and practice this kind of thing, if only to discover and gauge your current ability.
possum
Member
again i will hit this point, in the context of self defense, ccw etc, the head is generally not the best option, and here is why. the head is a small target, and it is gonna be moving, and harder to hit. additionally the possibility of by standards being at the scene is highly likely and you the person defending yourself is responsible for every round that you fire. the pelvis is where i train to go after the high center chest. why? it is as wide as the chest, as well it is the trunk, you chop it and the assaliant will be out of the fight, as well there are some really nasty things that run through that part of the body, the likelyness of causeing a threat to stop possing a hostile threat to you by hitting them in the pelvic region is very high.
this is often what "men" say, the macho amoung us, and there was a time in history where this might have been fine, and a shooting was a shooting, not the case anymore. and if the jury finds that out, you will be spending alot more time in jail.
you do not want to take a life if you don't have too, yeah it sounds macho and manly when people say it, but many of the people that have become shall i say humble and they understand why it is the last thing you want to do. it is easy to sit behind a computer, with a gun at your side, and show your "A" type personality, it is a whole different matter in the real world when the shooting stops.
you will have plenty of things to worry about if you get into a shooting, you don't need the taking of a human life on your mind unless that was the only way out, the only that you could stop him from being a threat to you. you have the gun fight, the legal fight, the media fight, and you will have the mental and emotional fight to worry about. even if you were 100% right and you did what you HAD to do.
you are not aware of your suroundings anyway? why would getting into a defense sittuation where the assaliant live, cause you to do that, you should be aware of what is around you already, if something like that has to happen for you to be in the right mind set you have alreayd lost, and you are way behind the power curve already.
possum
Member
i agree 100% and if you disagree than you are seriously mistaken. is a handgun better than hand to hand? yes, is a handgun better than nothing? yes, is a handgun better than a knife? yes, however statistics out of Memphis show that 80% of people shot with handguns across the board of caliber size survive. 20% of people stabbed survive.
handguns are carried because they are concealable, and they are convenient, they are carried because a rifle is not. however that still dosen't mean that the handgun is the best thing that you could use, but that is what you have and that is what you will most likley use. if you have read any case studies at all about self defense and or police shootings using handguns you will understand this point. a .223/ 5.56 is much more effective at stopping a threat than a handgun, but to talk to some BTDT guys, and they will tell you that even with a rifle it still takes multiple rounds to stop a threat, so if it takes multiple rounds from a high velocity round comming form a 16" barrel then you can see where there would be an issue shooting a small slow moving cartridge. even if you are using the lightest and fastest handgun round avaliable, it is no where near the potential to stop a threat that a rifle round does, however even those take more than 1, 2, 3, and veen more sometimes.
a rifle round is moving fast enough that it not only affects what it hits but also the surrounding tissue, organs etc. to affect the heart with a handun round you have to hit the heart, see the difference? to get a handgun round in the head (since everyone likes to go for a head shot for some reason) you will have to put that round in a hole in the head, i ie the eye socket, the ear, etc. handgun rounds have been known to deflect off of the human skull.
additionally handguns, are less accurate, and they are harder to shoot. even harder still to hit a moving target( beacause that is what your target will be doing) with the short barrel lenght, short sight radius of a handgun and under stress. additionally read my sig line, most people that own guns do just that.most people that carry do just that, 5% of people that carry attend training, and i bet even a less number of that do more than one course, and stay profecint with thier handgun.
easyg
Member
I would like to see exactly how those stats were acquired.
I've X-rayed lots of folks who have been stabbed, and in most cases the blade didn't even reach a vital organ or vessel.
I find it very hard to believe that only 20% of folks who have been stabbed survive.
possum
Member
stats are not my line of work however i can tell you it came from there, i was told about it, in a mindset lecture while attending Fighting Handgun in Camden Tenn.
more forty fives
Member
Till there's no movement.
mljdeckard
Member
^^Careful. That's like saying you are shooting to kill. You are shooting until they are no longer a threat.
Demitrios
Member
There was something my brother once told me. If you're standing underneath a safe and the only thing to prevent it from falling on your head is to push the button right next to you within the next two seconds are you going to push it once or are you going to push it as many times as possible withing those two seconds?
While we're on the subject of shooting to neutralize or until the adversary is no longer a threat why don't we talk about the things that will literally tell you this? Such as: the enemy running away, dropping the gun or other weapon or falling down in a non-combative heap on the floor. Anyone want to add?
mljdeckard
Member
I wouldn't try to make it too complicated. Either they are still trying to kill you or they're not.
easyg
Member
Because I want the first guy I shoot to cease to be a threat.
This is what double-tapping (and triple-tapping) is all about:
Hitting a target, as quick as possible, with enough rounds as to provided a REASONABLE expectation that the target will forever after cease to be a threat.
"One shot stops" are about as common as leprechauns .
But "three shot stops" are not near so uncommon.
I don't know who's signature it is, but everyone in my family has related it to me (they have all asked me the same question). "Everyone asks, shoot to maim or shoot to kill? I say, empty the magazine (or 5/6- shot) and let the good Lord decide." Just be sure to practice your re-loading drills. **Credit to the good gentleman whose signature that is**
easyg
Member
Not it all three of the bad guys (who survive the single shot COM), kill you, then kill your family, and then all three go on to prey upon other families.
again i will hit this point, in the context of self defense, ccw etc, the head is generally not the best option, and here is why.
Thanx for posting this possum. One sees so many experienced, level headed gunfighters on the internet who can make a head shot under any circumstances. These are usually the same guys who brag about their expertise and show off their 12" groups (or patterns) at 7 yards to demonstrate their expertise.
Head shots are easy in IDPA or IPSC not so in real life.
Thanx for posting this possum. One sees so many experienced, level headed gunfighters on the internet who can make a head shot under any circumstances. These are usually the same guys who brag about their expertise and show off their 12" groups (or patterns) at 7 yards to demonstrate their expertise.
Head shots are easy in IDPA or IPSC not so in real life.
David E
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Um.......what ?
If you are presented with 3 equally hostile targets, the prudent man shoots them all ONCE before shooting them again.
For example, if I had 3 equal threats at 5 yds spaced 1 foot apart at shoulders, I'd go 1,1,2,1,1 and serve thirds (4ths/5th's, etc ) to anyone needing them.
It need not take all that long, if you practice. Here's what I did recently at the range with a .38 snub and a .40 1911:
Simulating a draw with the .38 snubby, I fired one shot on EACH of the 3 targets:
.76
.29
.27
------
1.32
My best run was this:
.65
.27
.25
------
1.18
Changing to a 1911 Govt chambered in .40 using factory ammo, using a holster, I fired one shot on each of the 3 targets:
.59
.21
.16
------
.96
Still using the 1911 in .40, starting with GUN IN HOLSTER, HANDS AT SIDES (not touching gun) I then did one shot each, reload, one shot each:
.82
.24
.18
1.16
.22
.16
------
2.78 total time.
easyg
Member
Do you honestly think that it's realistic to expect that you will be assaulted by three bad guys standing side-by-side 1' apart?
Have you ever seen a person get "jumped" by several guys?
They don't line up side-by-side, they usually surround their victim, like a pack of wolves.
So imagine shooting target 1, then turning about 45 degrees and trying to shoot target 2, and then turning further and trying to locate and shoot target number 3 (who will have surely moved or attacked by the time you have nailed target number 2).
The odds are not very good that you will be able to hit all three targets before you are attacked....which is why taking on multiple attackers is almost a "no win situation" (unless they are channeled down a narrow entrance or hallway, or similar situation).
So by single-tapping the most likely scenario is that you will hit one target, maybe two, only once before being attacked....and the ones that you were lucky enough to shoot will most likely still be viable threats.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Unless one option is "flying in on broomsticks", one scenario for being attacked is just about as likely or unlikely as any other.
Multiple target drills just aren't terribly hard to accomplish in either the 2,2,2 or 1,1,2,1,1 format. If you're good with your handguns the total elapsed time for either sequence won't differ by a second.
The infinite differences in how many threats there might be and how they might arrange themselves, and total distances, and relative distances, and the objects and structures in or composing the scene of the attack, and what weapons might be visible, and how fast you can "get off the X," and to what extent you can move to "stack" your opponants, etc., etc. are going to matter more than how fast you can hit them "in sequence" vs. "in priority."
I will add one more thought, though:
I'd rather be attacked by three, two of whom are already bleeding from my COM hits than be attacked by two who I didn't get a shot on (even if their buddy is DRT).
But if it ever happens, I don't expect to sit and think about it much. Hopefully reflex -- based on often repeated practice -- will make the decision for me.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
The first rule of combat is, shoot your most dangerous opponent first.
The second rule is, every shot is your first shot.
In other words, shoot the biggest threat and keep shooting until something changes. Yes, you might run out of ammunition, but do you want to die with live rounds still in the cylinder?
John Farnham said, "The most common cause of a stoppage in a revolver or in an autoloader is running out of ammunition." That's why if you carry, carry at least one reload and practice reloading.
The second rule is, every shot is your first shot.
In other words, shoot the biggest threat and keep shooting until something changes. Yes, you might run out of ammunition, but do you want to die with live rounds still in the cylinder?
John Farnham said, "The most common cause of a stoppage in a revolver or in an autoloader is running out of ammunition." That's why if you carry, carry at least one reload and practice reloading.
easyg
Member
This is exactly why I practice three shots COM before moving on to the next target.
I want that to become a reflex.
I think that doing single-taps and then moving to the next target is contrary to the notion of stopping an oncoming threat.
Here's what I mean:
Say you have two guys coming your direction.
Once they are about 10 feet from you, one of them rushes you with a knife.
Now your reflexes and training kick in.
You shoot the guy charging you and then you take your sights off of him and shoot the second guy....just like you did a thousand times in training.
But the guy was only ten feet away and already rushing you.
What do you think are the odds of him being stopped by that one shot before covering 10 feet?
What are the odds that the single shot will incapacitate him enough so that he cannot stab you?
Whatever odds you give, a triple-tap increases those odds X3.
Exactly!
Easy
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