Doubles!
- Thread starter JimJD
- Start date
- Status
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Jim ....
Dave, HSMITH, Trapper Ready, sm ... et al ... all may come back with names but ... let me just say that possibly .. probably even .. a good value S/S might well be Spanish.
I got this ''Sable'' non-eject 12G back in 1976 (admittedly!) .. but it was not overly expensive and is a lovely sporting shotty. I had to add 2" to the butt tho .. for best fit.
Oh and .... as you can see no doubt ... box lock ... sorry pic so puny!
Dave, HSMITH, Trapper Ready, sm ... et al ... all may come back with names but ... let me just say that possibly .. probably even .. a good value S/S might well be Spanish.
I got this ''Sable'' non-eject 12G back in 1976 (admittedly!) .. but it was not overly expensive and is a lovely sporting shotty. I had to add 2" to the butt tho .. for best fit.
Oh and .... as you can see no doubt ... box lock ... sorry pic so puny!
Kingcreek
Member
Can you define affordable?
I bought a 12g Browning BSS side-by-side in 1981 for under $300.
I bought a 12g Browning BSS side-by-side in 1981 for under $300.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
I'm not too much up on the affordable ones. I keep looking with longing at the occasional Model 21 or unobtainable English eye-candy.
However, this past weekend, I went out and shot some game farm birds while breaking in a new dog (actually it's a very old dog who is new to hunting*). A good friend came with to try out his new Stoeger 20ga SxS. It's kind of a cool little thing. It's got a semi-pistol grip, dual-triggers, auto safety (I think), 26" barrel, accepts choke tubes, and cost him maybe $350.
He shot it well and didn't have any problems, although he had previously smoothed out a small burr on one of the ejectors so that the shell wouldn't hang up. If I could get the same thing with a straight stock, I might just do it to see if I want to spend the kids' college money on old double guns.
No, really honey... they're investments!
-------------------
* BTW, I'm compiling some stories about teaching my 8 year-old house-pet mutt how to be a bird dog. Surprisingly, it's working very well. I'll probably start posting some of these in the Hunting section in the next week or two.
However, this past weekend, I went out and shot some game farm birds while breaking in a new dog (actually it's a very old dog who is new to hunting*). A good friend came with to try out his new Stoeger 20ga SxS. It's kind of a cool little thing. It's got a semi-pistol grip, dual-triggers, auto safety (I think), 26" barrel, accepts choke tubes, and cost him maybe $350.
He shot it well and didn't have any problems, although he had previously smoothed out a small burr on one of the ejectors so that the shell wouldn't hang up. If I could get the same thing with a straight stock, I might just do it to see if I want to spend the kids' college money on old double guns.
No, really honey... they're investments!
-------------------
* BTW, I'm compiling some stories about teaching my 8 year-old house-pet mutt how to be a bird dog. Surprisingly, it's working very well. I'll probably start posting some of these in the Hunting section in the next week or two.
It depends on your definition of affordable. As Dave says, the good ones are expensive and the cheap ones aren't good.
Where price and quality meet is the SKB sxs IMHO. They work well and won't cripple a bank account.
http://www.skbshotguns.com/Side by Sides.htm
I'm underwhelmed with the various Stoegers, Baikals and Huglus. Although if I had to pick one it would probably be a Baikal and hope for the best.
I'm very familiar with Spanish shotguns and they are a lot like Spanish wines. The good ones are very good but the bad ones are terrible. It takes a little effort to know which is which and even the good names can produce a clunker.
If the much vaunted Ruger Gold Label ever actually gets into widespread production (and I remain doubtful) it may be the answer to a quality sxs at a price that while not cheap is attainable.
Paul
Where price and quality meet is the SKB sxs IMHO. They work well and won't cripple a bank account.
http://www.skbshotguns.com/Side by Sides.htm
I'm underwhelmed with the various Stoegers, Baikals and Huglus. Although if I had to pick one it would probably be a Baikal and hope for the best.
I'm very familiar with Spanish shotguns and they are a lot like Spanish wines. The good ones are very good but the bad ones are terrible. It takes a little effort to know which is which and even the good names can produce a clunker.
If the much vaunted Ruger Gold Label ever actually gets into widespread production (and I remain doubtful) it may be the answer to a quality sxs at a price that while not cheap is attainable.
Paul
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Lots of choices out there. Here's a few that I think give lots of gun for the money, and not that much money.IMO, these are better choices than newer imports.
Savage 311s.
Utility grade US made doubles from yesteryear. Parker Trojans and Fox Sterlingworths are getting pricey, but low grade NIDs and LC Smiths are still out there. Pass on old hardware guns and Ithacas older than the New Ithaca Doubles.
Euro doubles made in France and Belgium are often available for a fraction of what a British shotgun of the same quality brings. This does NOT apply to the vast majority of Belgian marked guns made shoddily and imported to the US before WWI. Many good doubles came to the US after WWII in duffle bags as plunder, and they pop up from time to time. Things like triple bite locking systems, articulated front triggers and all screw heads lining up parallel to the bore show quality.
The Spanish gun scene is as complicated as Sicilian politics.Lots of older ones have part hardness issues, but are otherwise wonderful shotguns.
What to avoid includes Damascus and twist barrels. While some folks happily shoot these, the fact they're alive is just proof the Foolkiller was busy elsewhere.
Many good shotguns are cursed by The Short Chamber Demon. Many of these are otherwise fine guns and worth having a QUALIFIED smith lengthen the chamber. Others can be used with the more common than before 2 1/2" shells imported by Game bore et al.
ALL old doubles should be checked by a competent smith, and I'd have an agreement in writing from the seller that the shotgun can be returned w/o penalty after an inspection period. The ring test and the other stuff mentioned in the Archives on this are prerequisites...
HTH...
Savage 311s.
Utility grade US made doubles from yesteryear. Parker Trojans and Fox Sterlingworths are getting pricey, but low grade NIDs and LC Smiths are still out there. Pass on old hardware guns and Ithacas older than the New Ithaca Doubles.
Euro doubles made in France and Belgium are often available for a fraction of what a British shotgun of the same quality brings. This does NOT apply to the vast majority of Belgian marked guns made shoddily and imported to the US before WWI. Many good doubles came to the US after WWII in duffle bags as plunder, and they pop up from time to time. Things like triple bite locking systems, articulated front triggers and all screw heads lining up parallel to the bore show quality.
The Spanish gun scene is as complicated as Sicilian politics.Lots of older ones have part hardness issues, but are otherwise wonderful shotguns.
What to avoid includes Damascus and twist barrels. While some folks happily shoot these, the fact they're alive is just proof the Foolkiller was busy elsewhere.
Many good shotguns are cursed by The Short Chamber Demon. Many of these are otherwise fine guns and worth having a QUALIFIED smith lengthen the chamber. Others can be used with the more common than before 2 1/2" shells imported by Game bore et al.
ALL old doubles should be checked by a competent smith, and I'd have an agreement in writing from the seller that the shotgun can be returned w/o penalty after an inspection period. The ring test and the other stuff mentioned in the Archives on this are prerequisites...
HTH...
sm
member
Dave has the best suggestions.
Me, I drool and wish. I stay "very nice" to friends that have Wesley Richards in 28 ga, or Model 21's. There are some others , but I'm pretty sure these folks ain't even gonna leave to family...special caskets with gun sleeves I hear are being requested.
I still have no replies to a couple of classified ads.
- I'm up for adoption in a good home with guns, ammo, hunting...
- Room for let for model 21
....well, you get the idea...
Me, I drool and wish. I stay "very nice" to friends that have Wesley Richards in 28 ga, or Model 21's. There are some others , but I'm pretty sure these folks ain't even gonna leave to family...special caskets with gun sleeves I hear are being requested.
I still have no replies to a couple of classified ads.
- I'm up for adoption in a good home with guns, ammo, hunting...
- Room for let for model 21
....well, you get the idea...
I said it before, and I'll say it again...
Affordable is a stupid criteria. Ruger thinks that $2000 is a good price point for the SxS they plan to offer, and yet people will compare them to the trash coming out of Eurasia at one tenth the retail.
There are thousands of SxS shotguns of better quality available on the used market for approximately $1000. This fact is why Ruger will probably never release their gun.
$1000 is NOT a lot of money, at least it shouldn't be to anyone over the age of 18 who can afford to shoot for fun. Collecting cheap trash just makes you a trash collector. Spend the money and buy guns like you buy a house. Make intellegent choices that you can live with for years. You will be better for it in the long run.
Affordable is a stupid criteria. Ruger thinks that $2000 is a good price point for the SxS they plan to offer, and yet people will compare them to the trash coming out of Eurasia at one tenth the retail.
There are thousands of SxS shotguns of better quality available on the used market for approximately $1000. This fact is why Ruger will probably never release their gun.
$1000 is NOT a lot of money, at least it shouldn't be to anyone over the age of 18 who can afford to shoot for fun. Collecting cheap trash just makes you a trash collector. Spend the money and buy guns like you buy a house. Make intellegent choices that you can live with for years. You will be better for it in the long run.
Okiecruffler
Member
"Collecting cheap trash just makes you a trash collector."
One man's trash is another man's 311.
Oh like you guys didn't know I was coming. In that price range a good used 311 will give you a better gun than any of those imports. Good solid gun made in America to last for several lifetimes. But, that being said, in my hunt for doubles I have found some older spanish guns that have tempted me.
One man's trash is another man's 311.
Oh like you guys didn't know I was coming. In that price range a good used 311 will give you a better gun than any of those imports. Good solid gun made in America to last for several lifetimes. But, that being said, in my hunt for doubles I have found some older spanish guns that have tempted me.
sm
member
Okie...
I let people consider some things "not desirable". Model 10s, 311s, Security Sixes, ...etc. Hey you can't put light rails and bling bling on them...
Sell it to me, so you can get what YOU need. Yes I'm bad, let them learn the hard way.
I like 311s, I wish I had a bunch of each ga.
Now for the life of me I cannot remember the name of the Spanish SxS a fellow had, I want to say the same gun Mfg made his O/U as well. This guy has moved away , but he had 32 ga shotguns , bought the ammo from Fiocchi. He had .410s and 28 ga as well from same. Anyway these Spanish guns were great looking, handled well, shot well, held up to a lot of use.
He bought the 32 ga guns for his newborn son, we just borrowed from the infant, he didn't seem to mind, more interested in momma at the time.
He had nice guns , Competition guns, hunting collectibles but he traveled to Spain to do business and hunted. I need to run him down, but IIRC these were not expensive per se'.
He was just as happy hunting and using his 311s, it was just these Spanish guns were priced right and he wanted a 32 ga for his son, that is what turned him onto them.
I let people consider some things "not desirable". Model 10s, 311s, Security Sixes, ...etc. Hey you can't put light rails and bling bling on them...
Sell it to me, so you can get what YOU need.
Yes I'm bad, let them learn the hard way. I like 311s, I wish I had a bunch of each ga.
Now for the life of me I cannot remember the name of the Spanish SxS a fellow had, I want to say the same gun Mfg made his O/U as well. This guy has moved away , but he had 32 ga shotguns , bought the ammo from Fiocchi. He had .410s and 28 ga as well from same. Anyway these Spanish guns were great looking, handled well, shot well, held up to a lot of use.
He bought the 32 ga guns for his newborn son, we just borrowed from the infant, he didn't seem to mind, more interested in momma at the time.
He had nice guns , Competition guns, hunting collectibles but he traveled to Spain to do business and hunted. I need to run him down, but IIRC these were not expensive per se'.
He was just as happy hunting and using his 311s, it was just these Spanish guns were priced right and he wanted a 32 ga for his son, that is what turned him onto them.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
Traveller - I don't think affordability is at all a stupid criteria. Each one of us has to make purchasing decisions based on our limited resources. For many, even those over 18, $1000 is a big chunk of change.
Right now, if I were to take $1000 to get some gun-related stuff, I could buy:
(A) a new competition upper for my AR
(B) some really nice glass for my deer rifle
(C) 3-5 used 870s
(D) a top of the line, NEW, autoloading shotgun
(E) a Dillon 550 and all the stuff to reload all the main calibers I shoot
(F) training from one of the big-name schools
(G) nearly a year's worth of shotshell components
OR
(H) a well-worn, possibly beat-up old SxS
What I've seen on this board is that there are a fair number of shotgunners who are interested in SxS, but don't want to pony up the bucks for a "good" (whatever that means) SxS. I've known a few people (each of whom has thousands of dollars worth of shotguns), who have picked up Baikals or Stoegers, just to try them. For the most part, the guns have performed better than expected, and they still like to use them in the field. AFAIC, there's nothing wrong with that.
The cheaper SxSs I've handled have been generally nothing special to look at, but were reliable and put the shot where it was pointed. I can't fault them for that.
Personally, I've got spots reserved for two SxSs. One will be a Model 21, and the other is likely to be a custom 28ga. However, before that happens, I may buy or borrow an "affordable" one first, to make sure that I like shooting a gun with that configuration. When my sons get old enough, that cheap double will probably end up with the stock cut down and a nice soft pad installed... just about perfect for a young bird hunter.
Right now, if I were to take $1000 to get some gun-related stuff, I could buy:
(A) a new competition upper for my AR
(B) some really nice glass for my deer rifle
(C) 3-5 used 870s
(D) a top of the line, NEW, autoloading shotgun
(E) a Dillon 550 and all the stuff to reload all the main calibers I shoot
(F) training from one of the big-name schools
(G) nearly a year's worth of shotshell components
OR
(H) a well-worn, possibly beat-up old SxS
What I've seen on this board is that there are a fair number of shotgunners who are interested in SxS, but don't want to pony up the bucks for a "good" (whatever that means) SxS. I've known a few people (each of whom has thousands of dollars worth of shotguns), who have picked up Baikals or Stoegers, just to try them. For the most part, the guns have performed better than expected, and they still like to use them in the field. AFAIC, there's nothing wrong with that.
The cheaper SxSs I've handled have been generally nothing special to look at, but were reliable and put the shot where it was pointed. I can't fault them for that.
Personally, I've got spots reserved for two SxSs. One will be a Model 21, and the other is likely to be a custom 28ga. However, before that happens, I may buy or borrow an "affordable" one first, to make sure that I like shooting a gun with that configuration. When my sons get old enough, that cheap double will probably end up with the stock cut down and a nice soft pad installed... just about perfect for a young bird hunter.
I found an old, used Liberty SXS for $200. Maybe an "off" brand, but its reasonably light (especially comapred to the Stoeger I was also looking at), the barrels "rang" properly when tested, and the two barrels are well regulated (the store had a 30-day return policy for used guns if they weren't. I'm happy. And it has accounted for its share of Dove and quail.
Okiecruffler
Member
I've had an itch for quite awhile now to try an English stocked shotgun. I played with a Merkel awhile back, and I won't say it felt better, but it felt like something I'd like to try. So maybe I'll take a look at some of the stoegers out there.
Let's reach an understanding...
When you spend X dollars a year on your hobby, and something you want costs less than X dollars, it's not unaffordable. You just have higher priorities.
As for the idea of buying more of a different item, even though you want the first, that's false economy. Your want is not satisfied, and you now have a lot of stuff of less value.
Obtaining item B, because it's better than item A, and when you really want item C, happens only when there is no real need (or want), or the goal was unrealistic to start with. You have not moved toward your goal, you have settled for something less.
When you spend X dollars a year on your hobby, and something you want costs less than X dollars, it's not unaffordable. You just have higher priorities.
As for the idea of buying more of a different item, even though you want the first, that's false economy. Your want is not satisfied, and you now have a lot of stuff of less value.
Obtaining item B, because it's better than item A, and when you really want item C, happens only when there is no real need (or want), or the goal was unrealistic to start with. You have not moved toward your goal, you have settled for something less.
Okiecruffler
Member
And if a train leaves Chicago for New York at 70mph...
You're trying to inject economic theory into hobby buying, you're missing the emotional key that brought us to begin the hobby in the first place. I could sell a few of my 311's,(okay, I would have to sell all of them) and buy that really nice Merkel 12 gauge with the English style straight stock. Then I could look down my nose at all the poor fellows with 311's or 870's or what have you. But I figure there are enough of those types around anyway. And I get great pleasure just sitting here looking at my 311's, one day I will have an example of each, and it will bring me greater pleasure. Do you think when that day comes I will look back and say, "Sure wish I had that Merkel." ? I think not.
You're trying to inject economic theory into hobby buying, you're missing the emotional key that brought us to begin the hobby in the first place. I could sell a few of my 311's,(okay, I would have to sell all of them) and buy that really nice Merkel 12 gauge with the English style straight stock. Then I could look down my nose at all the poor fellows with 311's or 870's or what have you. But I figure there are enough of those types around anyway. And I get great pleasure just sitting here looking at my 311's, one day I will have an example of each, and it will bring me greater pleasure. Do you think when that day comes I will look back and say, "Sure wish I had that Merkel." ? I think not.
Bullet Bob
Member
My favorite are the Sporter (straight stock) Browning side by sides that are no longer produced. You can find one in pretty good condition for about $1000.00, and they will appreciate.
I've owned one in 20 guage and 12, and could use them better on game than any other shotguns I've ever used, and that has been quite a few.
I no longer own either one because I'm a flippin' idiot at times.
I've owned one in 20 guage and 12, and could use them better on game than any other shotguns I've ever used, and that has been quite a few.
I no longer own either one because I'm a flippin' idiot at times.
Gila Jorge
Member
I have a Beretta 626 SxS 20ga with straight stock and bought
it 15 years ago or so for about 900 I guess. Used market will
get you a fine SxS if you look hard enough. Beretta made some
625s as well that were a bit cheaper as they had no auto ejectors
just extractors. Fine guns today. Just bought a 687 Silver Pigeon
II Sporting and a BT-99. Of course I buy at dealer cost. BUT if you
want a quality gun you have to pay the going fare. Otherwise buy used
and hope for the best. Many good buys sitting around out there....but you hafta look very hard. Good luck.
it 15 years ago or so for about 900 I guess. Used market will
get you a fine SxS if you look hard enough. Beretta made some
625s as well that were a bit cheaper as they had no auto ejectors
just extractors. Fine guns today. Just bought a 687 Silver Pigeon
II Sporting and a BT-99. Of course I buy at dealer cost. BUT if you
want a quality gun you have to pay the going fare. Otherwise buy used
and hope for the best. Many good buys sitting around out there....but you hafta look very hard. Good luck.
Mr Kablammo
Member
Try the various internet gun-selling sites and look for Fox Sterlingwerths, and other assorted American made post-WWII doubles. Surprisingly, there are many SxS SGs available for about $400---500. You may think this is not affordable, but it is very cheap for a good shooting SxS. If I ever get one I don't expect to pay less than $1,000, probably an SKB or Miroku. Good luck.
Mr Kablammo
Member
PS, online try gunsamerica, auction arms, gunbroker, and any links through shooting sportsman. Surprisingly, of printed materials the Shotgun News has little for the shotgunner. Try Gunlist and Shooting Sportsman want ads. If you want to experience real eye-popping prices try griffin-howe.com or an online version of Double Gun Journal. Best of luck.
Okie (et al):
It's not economics. It's a philosophy. I will always prefer quality to quantity.
It has been my experience that those who do not end up sitting around wishing they had that Merkel, Rizzini, Browning, or whatever. I would, and have, empty my safe on a chance to buy something on my list, as I would rather have something I really want than a bunch of stuff I can have.
It's not economics. It's a philosophy. I will always prefer quality to quantity.
It has been my experience that those who do not end up sitting around wishing they had that Merkel, Rizzini, Browning, or whatever. I would, and have, empty my safe on a chance to buy something on my list, as I would rather have something I really want than a bunch of stuff I can have.
Okiecruffler
Member
If it makes you happy, I'm happy. However, I'll stick with my wall of 311's, a couple dozen $50 Mosin's, and a growing number of $75 Mausers, and consider myself very happy indeed.
- Status
