Gabby Hayes
Member
Which is exactly why you want a double. Load one side with buckshot, and the other with one of them Dragon Breath shells to light up the room!
if a double for defense...
- Thread starter bullfrog99
- Start date
- Status
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
K, Gabby, but I'd just reverse the order of loading.
First to light up the room & then ....
First to light up the room & then ....
Gabby Hayes
Member
Order of loading? I figure on yankin' both triggers at the same time!
Now people here know me and know that I'm an advocate of simple with lots of practice vs. a fancy blinged out gun with minimal practice. However I'm going to have to side with 355sigfan on this one.
A double barrel makes a fine weapon if that is all that you have. However you can pick up a pump gun for an equal or lesser amount of money, and have a minimum of 3 more shots.
The pump is not that much more complicated. With a minimal amount of practice or training the pump can be used easily. If the shooter cannot learn to operate a pump safely, then I'm not putting any money down on them operating a double either.
Yes the cowboy action guys can load a double fast, however what are the odds that you are going to be wearing your cowbody style speedy bandoleer when you need that shotgun at 2:00 AM?
The problem is capacity. If you miss you are in trouble. If there is more than one bad guy, you are in trouble. I just can't see any reason to recommend the double over the pump.
Reliability is equal. Discounting parts breakage both are going to hover around 100%.
The comparison was made to a 5 shot snubby revolver. Ok, neither one is my first choice, but at least the snubby is small.
A double barrel makes a fine weapon if that is all that you have. However you can pick up a pump gun for an equal or lesser amount of money, and have a minimum of 3 more shots.
The pump is not that much more complicated. With a minimal amount of practice or training the pump can be used easily. If the shooter cannot learn to operate a pump safely, then I'm not putting any money down on them operating a double either.
Yes the cowboy action guys can load a double fast, however what are the odds that you are going to be wearing your cowbody style speedy bandoleer when you need that shotgun at 2:00 AM?
The problem is capacity. If you miss you are in trouble. If there is more than one bad guy, you are in trouble. I just can't see any reason to recommend the double over the pump.
Reliability is equal. Discounting parts breakage both are going to hover around 100%.
The comparison was made to a 5 shot snubby revolver. Ok, neither one is my first choice, but at least the snubby is small.
seeker_two
Member
Great things about double-barrel coach guns:
1. short OAL for home use.
2. simple manual of arms.
3. quick to load, unload, & secure.
4. two chokes for the price of one.
5. butt cuff holds multiple reloads.
6. simple to engage multiple targets (1 shot per BG, butt-stroke when empty, go to BUG as needed
)
To paraphrase Sheriff Jim Wilson, "You just can't keep house without at least one double-barrel shotgun."
1. short OAL for home use.
2. simple manual of arms.
3. quick to load, unload, & secure.
4. two chokes for the price of one.
5. butt cuff holds multiple reloads.
6. simple to engage multiple targets (1 shot per BG, butt-stroke when empty, go to BUG as needed
)To paraphrase Sheriff Jim Wilson, "You just can't keep house without at least one double-barrel shotgun."
bullfrog99
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 56
355sigfan quote: "the image of a homeowner purposefully handicapping him or herself with an obsolete firearm is humorous. Heck why not load up a muzzle loader. "
To 355sigfan,
I’m glad my choices were so humorous. I am curious however if you were so concerned with keeping up with modern technology, why then would you use an outdated firearm like a pump, a design dating back to the 19th century? Semi-automatic shotguns have proven themselves to work quite well nowadays, all the better tactical teams are adapting them. Semi-autos eliminate the chance of short stroking and jamming your shotgun, something that happens quite often even to relatively well trained people when in a high stress situation. As a matter of fact, why go with a shotgun at all? If capacity is your problem, why not pick up a $300 Kalashnikov in 7.62x39. With a 30 round mag loaded with defensive hollowpoints and an ammo carrier next to it with four other 30 round mags, you will have 150 rounds within easy reach. Sure beats five or nine rounds depending on the model of your favorite pump. Common rebuttal, “rifles over-penetrateâ€, so buy a 223, carbine, you would get even less chance of over-penetration than with buckshot.
355sigfan, I am sorry if this sounded a bit hot, but laughing at my choice IS laughing at me. If you have an relevant opinion, voice it by all means, but don't insult others simply because you don’t agree with what they say. I am not ignorant, nor am I inexperienced. I have very good reasons for choosing a double barreled gun. A side by side plain and simple is frightening when pointed at you, and inoffensive to the eye from a jury’s point of view. What chance do you think anyone has showing up in court with a mossberg 590 A-1 with bayonet and tactical light attached when the liberal lawyer gets his or her mitts into an all yuppie soccer mom jury?A side by side shotgun with two rounds of 12 pellet '00" buck is quite enough gun for anyone who actually aims their weapon. With 99% one shot stop, an upper torso shot will put anyone not wearing a vest down for good.
To those who commented about not seeing the gun in a dark room, why exactly would you even think about shooting at shadows? I always leave at least some lights on in my house if for no other reason so I don’t trip over one of the dog when I get up in the night to answer the call of nature or raid the fridge.
To others everyone made valid points. I still do not feel comfortable leaving a loaded and cocked gun around the house. If I went with an internal hammer gun, I think I would buy a leather (not synthetic, those things stretch out so quickly) buttstock shell carrier. Other than that, it seems the internal hammer gun would be more practical, snag free etc. Thank you for your replies.
To 355sigfan,
I’m glad my choices were so humorous. I am curious however if you were so concerned with keeping up with modern technology, why then would you use an outdated firearm like a pump, a design dating back to the 19th century? Semi-automatic shotguns have proven themselves to work quite well nowadays, all the better tactical teams are adapting them. Semi-autos eliminate the chance of short stroking and jamming your shotgun, something that happens quite often even to relatively well trained people when in a high stress situation. As a matter of fact, why go with a shotgun at all? If capacity is your problem, why not pick up a $300 Kalashnikov in 7.62x39. With a 30 round mag loaded with defensive hollowpoints and an ammo carrier next to it with four other 30 round mags, you will have 150 rounds within easy reach. Sure beats five or nine rounds depending on the model of your favorite pump. Common rebuttal, “rifles over-penetrateâ€, so buy a 223, carbine, you would get even less chance of over-penetration than with buckshot.
355sigfan, I am sorry if this sounded a bit hot, but laughing at my choice IS laughing at me. If you have an relevant opinion, voice it by all means, but don't insult others simply because you don’t agree with what they say. I am not ignorant, nor am I inexperienced. I have very good reasons for choosing a double barreled gun. A side by side plain and simple is frightening when pointed at you, and inoffensive to the eye from a jury’s point of view. What chance do you think anyone has showing up in court with a mossberg 590 A-1 with bayonet and tactical light attached when the liberal lawyer gets his or her mitts into an all yuppie soccer mom jury?A side by side shotgun with two rounds of 12 pellet '00" buck is quite enough gun for anyone who actually aims their weapon. With 99% one shot stop, an upper torso shot will put anyone not wearing a vest down for good.
To those who commented about not seeing the gun in a dark room, why exactly would you even think about shooting at shadows? I always leave at least some lights on in my house if for no other reason so I don’t trip over one of the dog when I get up in the night to answer the call of nature or raid the fridge.
To others everyone made valid points. I still do not feel comfortable leaving a loaded and cocked gun around the house. If I went with an internal hammer gun, I think I would buy a leather (not synthetic, those things stretch out so quickly) buttstock shell carrier. Other than that, it seems the internal hammer gun would be more practical, snag free etc. Thank you for your replies.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
PJR - Have you ever shot "Crazy Quail" with an O/U or SxS? For those of you unfamiliar with the game, a thrower hurls 10 targets, as pairs with each pair spaced about 4-5 seconds apart. It's largely an exercise in reloading (although the shooting is VERY fast).
I've shot it with an O/U, and with an autoloader... still need to try a pump. I'm not nearly as smooth as some guys with the two-barrel reloads, and I can still keep up very well. If it came down to it, I'd PREFER a pump with mag extension for HD. However, I wouldn't feel at much of a disadvantage with my Browning 425.
Remember that a significant portion of the people who go after dangerous game deliberately trust their lives to double-guns.
I've shot it with an O/U, and with an autoloader... still need to try a pump. I'm not nearly as smooth as some guys with the two-barrel reloads, and I can still keep up very well. If it came down to it, I'd PREFER a pump with mag extension for HD. However, I wouldn't feel at much of a disadvantage with my Browning 425.
Remember that a significant portion of the people who go after dangerous game deliberately trust their lives to double-guns.
Semi-automatic shotguns have proven themselves to work quite well nowadays, all the better tactical teams are adapting them. Semi-autos eliminate the chance of short stroking and jamming your shotgun,
END
Actually I never said that semi auto shotguns were bad choices. However most tac teams are going away from shotguns in general except for breaching and less lethal applications which work better with a pump.
Pat
END
Actually I never said that semi auto shotguns were bad choices. However most tac teams are going away from shotguns in general except for breaching and less lethal applications which work better with a pump.
Pat
Gabby Hayes
Member
Back when I was trying to settle on an HD shotgun I found these thoughts helpful:
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 2, No. 3, March 1994
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 2, No. 3, March 1994
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 11, No. 11, September 2003
Jeff Cooper, February 1990
I'm not quite sure, though, whether the good Colonel is concerned more about defending the homested or the "beasties" that might crawl into his barrels.
sm
member
Interesting thread.
While I agree with proper training, instructions, BA/UU/R, get the most gun for the monies ( even spending a bit more if need), keeping things simple, ...etc.
Rule One: Have a gun
I know persons and I have assisted with the choice of a HD firearm. In regard to shotguns, yes I have recommended a double bbl, even a single bbl.
-Immediate need of a SG for an abused mom and daughter and flat broke, no experience, single shot bought used at the pawn shop. Later we did upgrade.
-Arthritic persons, and not just the elderly folks either. My Mom is one for example.
- Vet lost a forearm, dang 1100 is a bit much to handle with other health problems creeping up. He can use that 311 dbl bbl quite well. That Security Six revolver is handy as well.
Though I have my druthers, I respect people are different. There may be reasons why a person chooses as they do. They at least have taken the responsibility for personal safety. The least I can do is give respect in return, assist in teaching, answer questions if asked.
While I agree with proper training, instructions, BA/UU/R, get the most gun for the monies ( even spending a bit more if need), keeping things simple, ...etc.
Rule One: Have a gun
I know persons and I have assisted with the choice of a HD firearm. In regard to shotguns, yes I have recommended a double bbl, even a single bbl.
-Immediate need of a SG for an abused mom and daughter and flat broke, no experience, single shot bought used at the pawn shop. Later we did upgrade.
-Arthritic persons, and not just the elderly folks either. My Mom is one for example.
- Vet lost a forearm, dang 1100 is a bit much to handle with other health problems creeping up. He can use that 311 dbl bbl quite well. That Security Six revolver is handy as well.
Though I have my druthers, I respect people are different. There may be reasons why a person chooses as they do. They at least have taken the responsibility for personal safety. The least I can do is give respect in return, assist in teaching, answer questions if asked.
goalie
Member
One plus for the double that no one mentioned yet is that the second shot is INSTANTLY AVAILABLE. While overall capacity may be lower, that 2nd shot is right there, right now. Of course, people hunting dangerous game have known that for years, and many serious hunters in Africa used doubles well after reliable bolt action rifles were invented because they wanted the second shot instantly available.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Let's keep it on the High Road, folks.
FWIW, Pat, I regard the Colonel and his writings highly. Some advice he gave in writing may have saved my life during the Nam Mess.
As for doubles, as HD weapons for private citizens they make a viable choice.
Criminals have little interest in pressing an attack against an alert, armed opponent. We're not talking about the Battle for Hue here. Two shots from a double should equal two neutralized perps, any remaining perps will likely be more interested in escape than wreaking vengeance.
I've known a number of folks who thought doubles were a good choice for HD. IMO, their effectiveness was little affected by their choice of arms.
FWIW, Pat, I regard the Colonel and his writings highly. Some advice he gave in writing may have saved my life during the Nam Mess.
As for doubles, as HD weapons for private citizens they make a viable choice.
Criminals have little interest in pressing an attack against an alert, armed opponent. We're not talking about the Battle for Hue here. Two shots from a double should equal two neutralized perps, any remaining perps will likely be more interested in escape than wreaking vengeance.
I've known a number of folks who thought doubles were a good choice for HD. IMO, their effectiveness was little affected by their choice of arms.
I am sorry if I offended on my view of Jeff Cooper. I respect what he has offered to combat pistolcraft. But his views on weapons are often comical to me. He regards the 223 as a mouse gun. He says the 9mm is useless. Reading his writings in the back of a certain gun magazine is very funny to me.
Pat
Pat
bullfrog99
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 56
You must laugh a lot huh pat, yet it seems you offer no intelligent statements other than to claim every one else is a fool. You make me chuckle.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Pat,ca 1981 I had to deal with one James Day, who took 11, yes 11, hits from 9mms held by LEOs, Round was the 115 gr Silvertip. He was still a problem child in a Max unit.
And, my views on the 5.56 mm were gathered independently from the Colonel's. I'm not that fond of it either.
Colonel Cooper bases his opinions on solid data from field reports and experience. Best way, IMO.
And, my views on the 5.56 mm were gathered independently from the Colonel's. I'm not that fond of it either.
Colonel Cooper bases his opinions on solid data from field reports and experience. Best way, IMO.
You must laugh a lot huh pat, yet it seems you offer no intelligent statements other than to claim every one else is a fool. You make me chuckle.
END
So much for the highroad. I believe personal attacks against other posters are fobidden. The only one calling anyone a fool is you bullfrog.
SNIP
Pat,ca 1981 I had to deal with one James Day, who took 11, yes 11, hits from 9mms held by LEOs, Round was the 115 gr Silvertip. He was still a problem child in a Max unit.
END
So what. Just last year in Boise 2 criminals killed 2 police officers after being hit with 12 45 acp jhp's. The criminals killed the cops in this instance with 9mm's.
The 223 has being working well in actual shootings in my state and most others. Both sides of the stopping power argument (Fackler/IWBA and Marshall) show the 223 doing well in actual shootings
Cooper based his opinion on his own beliefs and ignored a lot of good data. He still thinks that 45 ball stops 19 out of 20 people. Thats not good data.
Pat
END
So much for the highroad. I believe personal attacks against other posters are fobidden. The only one calling anyone a fool is you bullfrog.
SNIP
Pat,ca 1981 I had to deal with one James Day, who took 11, yes 11, hits from 9mms held by LEOs, Round was the 115 gr Silvertip. He was still a problem child in a Max unit.
END
So what. Just last year in Boise 2 criminals killed 2 police officers after being hit with 12 45 acp jhp's. The criminals killed the cops in this instance with 9mm's.
The 223 has being working well in actual shootings in my state and most others. Both sides of the stopping power argument (Fackler/IWBA and Marshall) show the 223 doing well in actual shootings
Cooper based his opinion on his own beliefs and ignored a lot of good data. He still thinks that 45 ball stops 19 out of 20 people. Thats not good data.
Pat
Ok everybody, this is a thread about double barrel shotguns for home defense.
Lets cut the thread drift. It ain't about the Colonel. It ain't about the M16. It ain't about the 9mm. And it isn't anything personal.
Everybody chill out and take the High Road.
Lets cut the thread drift. It ain't about the Colonel. It ain't about the M16. It ain't about the 9mm. And it isn't anything personal.
Everybody chill out and take the High Road.
Mulliga
Member
Realistically, a handy double could work well. I'm fairly sure everyone agrees the average double swings better than the average pump, and hitting someone with the first shot is usually what counts, or so I've read.
That said, I'd never rely SOLELY on a double. A good backup weapon, perhaps a nice .357 revolver (again, more cowboy stuff ) loaded with either hot .38 or plain .357, would be key.
And, extending the cowboy motif, how about a Marlin/Winchester .30-30 loaded with PowerPoints? If it can stop a deer in its tracks at 125 yards...
That said, I'd never rely SOLELY on a double. A good backup weapon, perhaps a nice .357 revolver (again, more cowboy stuff
) loaded with either hot .38 or plain .357, would be key.And, extending the cowboy motif, how about a Marlin/Winchester .30-30 loaded with PowerPoints? If it can stop a deer in its tracks at 125 yards...
seeker_two
Member
Me neither. My backup to the shotgun is either a K-38 w/ +P's or a Blackhawk .357 w/ 158gr. SJHP magnums.
Of course, it would be my backup if I had a pump or semi-auto shotgun too. Always carry a backup for your HD gun too.
So, beside ammo capacity, is there a good reason to EXCLUDE a double from HD use?
bullfrog99
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 56
"While a back up gun is a good idea. I doubt you will have time to grab 2 guns when you hear something go bump in the night. You should be grabbing a gun and a flashlight. Unless you have a weapon mounted light.
Pat"
This is an intelligent and reasonable response, it is also a valid one.
"the image of a homeowner purposefully handicapping him or herself with an obsolete firearm is humorous. Heck why not load up a muzzle loader. "
This response, particularly the end, is both irrelevant and insulting. At no time did I ask if a double was a good idea for defense, and that statement, along with others of similar form, contributed nothing to the to the thread.
I apologize for attacking you. I would however appreciate it if in the future you would voice your opinion in a respectful manner, and I encourage you to complete your thoughts rather than just making a rash statement and leaving it out in the air for others to guess at.
Pat"
This is an intelligent and reasonable response, it is also a valid one.
"the image of a homeowner purposefully handicapping him or herself with an obsolete firearm is humorous. Heck why not load up a muzzle loader. "
This response, particularly the end, is both irrelevant and insulting. At no time did I ask if a double was a good idea for defense, and that statement, along with others of similar form, contributed nothing to the to the thread.
I apologize for attacking you. I would however appreciate it if in the future you would voice your opinion in a respectful manner, and I encourage you to complete your thoughts rather than just making a rash statement and leaving it out in the air for others to guess at.
bullfrog99
My tact could have been better. My feelings on the subject do remain. I do find it somewhat funny that people would consider a double a viable home defense weapon. While I admit it could work well. But it has so many tactical disadvantages when compared to a pump, auto, carbine ext that its hard for me to take seriously. I see it much the same as a person using a cap and ball revolver for CCW. In all reality it would work as well as it did in the 1800's and if the shooter was skilled he would probably live. However its a poor choice compared to a quality semi auto or double action revolver.
I laughed like heck when I say the first concealment holster being sold for a single action army. The cowboy craze has sure it. I love cowboy guns too. I own a double. But the fact that some people would chose to defend themselves with obsolete technology is somewhat funny to me. I wish them no ill will. Its just it would seem to me that they are making the choice to use obsolete weapons more as a fashion statment than as a practical choice. Sorry for any offense.
Pat
My tact could have been better. My feelings on the subject do remain. I do find it somewhat funny that people would consider a double a viable home defense weapon. While I admit it could work well. But it has so many tactical disadvantages when compared to a pump, auto, carbine ext that its hard for me to take seriously. I see it much the same as a person using a cap and ball revolver for CCW. In all reality it would work as well as it did in the 1800's and if the shooter was skilled he would probably live. However its a poor choice compared to a quality semi auto or double action revolver.
I laughed like heck when I say the first concealment holster being sold for a single action army. The cowboy craze has sure it. I love cowboy guns too. I own a double. But the fact that some people would chose to defend themselves with obsolete technology is somewhat funny to me. I wish them no ill will. Its just it would seem to me that they are making the choice to use obsolete weapons more as a fashion statment than as a practical choice. Sorry for any offense.
Pat
Mannlicher
Member
The whole thing of advising others on what to use for HD hinges on whether or not the person you are advising has asked you for your input. Even if they do ask for your thoughts, most won't take it.
I have a really nice old Stevens 311 SxS in 16GA. I feel fairly comfortable with two #1 buck handy. While I really like this shottie, the one that I would reach for is my Remington Wingmaster with the 2X mag extension. The two 16 ga rounds would probably take care of anything I would ever run into. (heck, in 57 years of fairly hard living, I have never been in a situation were having a gun made any difference) There is always the chance though, that the SxS would not be adequate, and it is for that possiblilty, that I choose the Remington pump instead.
When the chips are down, and its your life, or the life of a loved one, that is on the line, I would hate to suddenly realize that I had compromised with the hardware choice.
I have a really nice old Stevens 311 SxS in 16GA. I feel fairly comfortable with two #1 buck handy. While I really like this shottie, the one that I would reach for is my Remington Wingmaster with the 2X mag extension. The two 16 ga rounds would probably take care of anything I would ever run into. (heck, in 57 years of fairly hard living, I have never been in a situation were having a gun made any difference) There is always the chance though, that the SxS would not be adequate, and it is for that possiblilty, that I choose the Remington pump instead.
When the chips are down, and its your life, or the life of a loved one, that is on the line, I would hate to suddenly realize that I had compromised with the hardware choice.
seeker_two
Member
Well, when the backup gun is holstered on the shotshell bandolier that goes with the shotgun, it leaves plenty of room for a flashlight.
Guess I shouldn't mention that the BUG is a Blackhawk .357Mag that I've had a LOT of practice shooting...
Feelings are great when tempered w/ politeness & consideration to those you're addressing. I'm not offended w/ your statements, but some could be. I'd like for this discussion to continue w/o the moderators having to send us to our rooms w/o supper...
The thing about those "obsolete weapons" is that they're still effective. A SAA in .45Colt may be limited in rounds available, but it's still capable of putting .45" holes in any BG that happens to break into the wrong house. Same for the double-barrel shotgun. Even if there are 3 BG's, I doubt any of them will volunteer to take the two shots so the third can get to me...
- Status