if a double for defense...

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I use a double for one reason

I've been shooting one for about 20 years now. I don't have to think about function when I pick one of mine up, it's second nature. It's one less thing to think about. I also have a house clearing plan already worked out. Carefully placed mirrors mean I can view almost the entire house from my bedroom door. The only easy entrance into my home is thru the kitchen, and I can turn that light on from the bedroom. The SXS is just a tool like any other. I could get a super tactical pump all set up and practice with it until I was as comfortable with it as one of my SXS's, but what would be the point? To get a few more shells? If round count was my concern I wouldn't bother with a SG to begin with. Now if I were doing drug raids on crack houses, of course I would rather have a pump, or better yet a handy little carbine rifle. But I don't plan on adding that to my hobby list anytime soon. I think alot of people spend way too much time and money on the weapon, and not near enough time at the range, or just sitting and thinking about "What If..."
 
While it's a cliche that it's the man and not the weapon, it's certainly true. Wasn't it in Alaska where some disgruntled survivalist shot down a police helicopter with a single shot Ruger .30-06?

I've seen more people short stroke pumps than any other kind of shotgun malfunction. A coach gun would be fast and handy to get into action, without as much risk of operator error.
 
I've seen more people short stroke pumps than any other kind of shotgun malfunction. A coach gun would be fast and handy to get into action, without as much risk of operator error.
END

Short stroking happens with shooters who don't train. Those same shooters are going to be fumbing on reloading the double. The pure simple truth is that 2 shots may not be enough. It its not your in a world of hurt with the double. I actually prefer the 223 carbine to any shotgun. But there are political issues with its use in some areas. A pump shotgun is a fairly PC weapon as would be a double. But the double has huge tactical flaws.
Pat
 
But the double has huge tactical flaws.
Click to expand...

To quote Montoya in THE PRINCESS BRIDE, "I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

tac·ti·cal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tkt-kl)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or using tactics.

2.
a.Of, relating to, used in, or involving military or naval operations that are smaller, closer to base, and of less long-term significance than strategic operations.
b.Carried out in support of military or naval operations: tactical bombing.

3. Characterized by adroitness, ingenuity, or skill.
Click to expand...

(Since we're not talking about military use, we can disregard that part.)

Are you honestly saying that a double-barrel shotgun cannot be used w/ adroitness, ingenuity, or skill? Or for some applications (close quarters, disability that makes pumping difficult, CAS competitor, etc.) the double wouldn't be an understandable choice for that skill level?

Just asking....:D
 
Well when you look at CAS and notice that all the winners are using the 1897 pump, it tells you something about the doubles ability as a fighting weapon.
Pat
 
Doesn't refute your last post? That's because your last post doesn't make sense. Even if he did use the word incorrectly, it's pretty obvious what he means. Poor (allegedly) word choice doesn't mean your argument is wrong.

For the sake of argument, though, try this definition from dictionary.com:

tac·tics
1.
a. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies.
b. (used with a pl. verb) Maneuvers used against an enemy: Guerrilla tactics were employed during most of the war.
2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A procedure or set of maneuvers engaged in to achieve an end, an aim, or a goal.
Click to expand...

Both 1b and 2 are applicable to his usage.
 
Actually tactical applies to any mortal combat. doubles are at a tactical disadvantage to any other shotgun save singleshots.
Pat
 
355sigfan: In a military or riot situation, I'm firmly with your position (while breaking out the AR-10's & Ma Deuces, of course...:D ), but the double is not at the serious disadvantage in a HD situation that you portray. The supporting reasoning has been discussed in prior posts.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one...

One thing I think we BOTH can agree upon: I pray that neither one of us is ever put into a real-life HD situation where we have to "prove" our point...

Good discussion, Pat...:cool:
 
Actually, a double can have a distinct tactical advantage, in that it offers two different chokes. You can have one fairly open choke for intruders who are in the doorway of your room. The tighter choked barrel can be used for those who are further down the hall. Likewise, if the evil-doer is running towards you, you can hit him with the tighter barrel first, and then follow up with the open one. Reverse this procedure if he's running away.

Hey, it works on birds, doesn't it??! ;)
 
Actually, a double can have a distinct tactical advantage, in that it offers two different chokes. You can have one fairly open choke for intruders who are in the doorway of your room.
END

At typical home defense ranges it will not matter if its a turkey choke or a sawed off barrel.
Pat
 
Doubles do have another thing going for them: they are among the most reliable of weapons.

Short stroking aside, if something bad happens to the firing pin or spring of a typical pump in a HD situation (as unlikely as both of these events are), your 870 has just become a paperweight. Hell, if a freak accident at the factory put little to no powder inside your shell, you are in trouble. Doubles have two barrels with two separate shells, ready at a moment's notice. Even a semi can't fire two shells faster than a double.

Aren't many of the "dangerous game" rifles doubles? Aren't BGs the most dangerous game of all? :)
 
Aren't many of the "dangerous game" rifles doubles? Aren't BGs the most dangerous game of all?
END

True but badguys shoot back they don't bite or charge. I prefer to hedge my bets with more than a minimum standard responce of 2 rounds.
Pat
 
Gun MUST fit shooter in a platform [MOA] with ammo that is 100% reliable ,
END

No gun or ammo combination is 100% reliable. I have seen all sorts of guns malfunction from revolvers to single shot shotguns. I am curious as to what course you were shooting when you beat the deputies with an over under. Clays I can believe it. A combat qualification would seem more difficult to believe I would have to see the course. Also its no trick to beat a poor shooter even with obsolete equipment.
Pat
 
all the better tactical teams are adapting them
Click to expand...

Eh? Squad leaders in my theoretically cutting-edge Stryker IBCT were getting Mossberg pumps with ATI top-folding stocks. (Those ATI stocks were breaking pretty easily, though.)

If one can have more rounds in a similar-sized and priced defensive firearm, why not?

Ultimately, though, it's always about the user, not the arm. "Paco" Kelly stopped 3 bank robbers with a single-action .45 Colt that I believe he was carrying concealed. (He killed one.)

Here's a question, though: what if you have equally skilled opponents? Well, then I guess the better-armed one's likely to win, eh?

John
 
"Also its no trick to beat a poor shooter even with obsolete equipment. "

Real question is, "Can the BG beat me, on my turf, with me only armed with my humorous obsolete SXS?" Let's hope we never have to find out, for his sake.
 
I have a 12 gauge Rossi Coach Gun loaded at all times in my bedroom.

The only reason I don't have 2 or 3 more stashed around the house is because I can't find any for sale.

If anyone knows of any for sale I'm looking for 2 or 3 more. I'd even take one in 20 gauge for the teenagers.
 
I like K.I.S.S. for just about everything in life, so I'm going with the doubles.

We manly-men may enjoy practicing functions checks and not short-stroking (Uh-huh; that's not what She says...) and tap-rack-banging and house-clearing scenarios with our pet gadgets and buds on the weekends, but I'm also considering that my wife or (future) kids may have to take up arms in their own defense some day.
You parents imagine just trying to get little Bobby and Suzy to do their homework, much less remember a manual-of-arms whilst peeing themselves.
Gimme sure and simple for them.
Pull trigger, BOOM.
Pull trigger again, BOOM.

Come to think of it, probably best for me, too, to be honest; having been awakened from a dead sleep by the dogs' noise and home alarm squawking and where are the kids and will wife remember the plan and will the cops come quickly and what did I just step in and where did that sound come from and why am I shaking and.....get it?

Whatever you choose, I sincerely that hope the most threatening thing you ever have to shoot in your lifetime is a rabid duck.

Cheers, Ya'll
 
Pull trigger, BOOM.
Pull trigger again, BOOM.
END

What about the 3rd boom when the first 2 miss or you have more than 1 or 2 goblins. It does not get much simplier than a pump gun.
Pat
 
A double can be a fine HD gun. I find it hard to believe that you have anything in your home so valuable to others that they are going to watch the first two guys get a chest full of buckshot and keep coming even if they know you need to reload. If you need to repel the zombie horde, then maybe a double isn't a good choice.

Don't miss! If you miss with the first two shots, the odds of a hit don't get better with each miss. They may even get worse as the level of stress rises. Don't spray and pray. Your life depends on it, whether you have 2 rounds or 20. Why prepare for such an event by training and planning then leave the outcome to blind luck by just blasting away?

On springs: Although I am truly no expert, I think springs wear out from usage. Compress, uncompress, compress, etc. I've heard tails of 1911 magazines that were found fully loaded after 30, 40 or so years and functioned fine. Also, doesn't a hammerless double cock when you open and close it even with empty chambers? Do you dry fire your doubles before you put them in the safe? Are your springs going bad right now?
 
ktulu - Yep, a hammerless double does cock when you open and close it. Out of habit, I always make sure to drop the hammers by dry-firing whenever I am casing or putting away an unloaded shotgun, regardless of action type.
 
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