if a double for defense...

[bullfrog99]

I think I am going to get a double-barreled shotgun to protect the homestead. A side by side shotgun has a very formidable look to it, especially from the muzzle end, and after watching various cowboy action shooters use them, I believe with practice even re-loading, the major flaw of such weapons, can be done quickly and efficiently. Among SXS shotguns there are two major groups, internal hammer and external hammer. The internal hammer type cocks when you load the weapon. Since having a cocked firearm around the house is dangerous in my opinion, and having tension on a spring for prolong periods weakens it, thus reducing reliability, I feel that ammunition must be stored out of the barrels. A hammer double however, does not have the hammers cocked, all the way at least, when it is loaded and as such may be stored loaded, and brought to action simply by drawing back the strikers. This is a big, and possibly their only, plus. A hammerless guns re-loads faster as the gun cocks when loaded, no need to take the extra step to cock back hammers. A hammerless gun is more snag free. I am not looking for a discussion as to if guns should be stored loaded or not, simply from your point of view which do you believe would be a better choice and why.

 

[Okiecruffler]

My choice is an internal hammered Stevens 311. It gets cleaned once a week and I usually dry fire it a few times a week just to make sure the springs are still good and tight. I'm comfortable with keeping it loaded that way. But the main reason I use internal hammers is that it is what I have. I see no reason why an external hammered gun wouldn't serve just as well. If you don't have time to cock those hammers, chances are the boogie is too close already and you're in a world of hurt.

 

[Smoke]

Doubles for defense:

I like hammerless (internal) guns. One less step to make the gun go boom.
Reloads are faster if you don't have to cock the hammers too (hammers is plural you know...)

The downside to doubles is the reload. I've seen some people that were phenominally fast. But nobody was pointing a gun at them. Stress and adrenaline do weird things to our bodies. You must also lower the weapon to reload.

Summary: If I am positive that there is only one person that is a threat. A double is fine. If more than one or number of threats is unknown, I'm grabbing the 870 and the doubles will wait to go to the dove field.

Smoke

 

[SMLE]

Personally, I would only use a double for defense if that was all I had. Yeah, they look bad, but you can't count on looks any more than you can sound. (see thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57483 )

If the gun's primary use is defense, get a pump or semi-auto. Leave the double for fun shooting. If you want a gun for defense AND cowboy shooting, get a '97 Winchester. I have two of the Norinco re-pops and they work faultlessly. You can see if the '97 is cocked or not, thus giving you a good idea if it's loaded, and you can un-load the magazine without cycling the rounds through the action. Good features even today.

 

[Gabby Hayes]

I've kept a mule-eared Rossi double in the closet for several years for exactly the reasons you mention -- simple manual of arms and not a lot of fuss or maintenance required. I had a pump at one time, but neither liked the idea of keeping the magazine loaded with the spring compressed, nor the amount of noise required to load it and get it into action. The SxS sits quietly in the corner, loaded with the hammers down. I can have it ready in an instant without making a sound. I don't have to worry about a safety, nor fumble with a slide release button that I could never quite locate when I needed to. I keep an old sock over the muzzle to keep critters out, and take it out at most once each year to see if it still works. It's not the fanciest and most expensive setup on the block, but it does the job I want it for.

 

[huntsman]

I use a hammerless (internal) , and if the gun is a decent make I wouldn't worry about the springs. I think some of the new hammerguns sold now are not true sidelocks but are just external safties. I'm not a big fan of of the russian/brazilian imports , but I think a stevens/savage or a nitrospecial would work fine, and if the imports are holding up to the CSA comp shoots they must be making them better.

 

[106rr]

I understand that one of the main reasons for the switch to internal hammers was safety. The external hammer shotguns had a higher accident rate. When the hammer is bumped or banged it transmits the blow to the primer. It also self cocks when dragged on brush or clothing.
The newer outside hammer guns may not be the same as the old ones in this respect
The NYPD used the Stevens 911 S&S short bbl for many years. The only advantage I can think of would be the short OAL of the shotgun. The ability to manuever in narrow hallways, staircases etc.
YMMV

 

[Hardtarget]

I only have a one time experience with "home defense"...and it firmly convinced me to get a pump 12 ga.! Let me explaine. I was ready for bed. The lights were out so I looked out the back window for that last check...and there was a person, with a flashlight, looking in my truck window. I grabbed my pants, told the wife to call the cops, picked up my shotgun. All I had was a 12 ga. o/u...double triggers.
Now I'm out on the back porch asking what he thinks he's doing and who are you...and stop right there, cops are on the way.He's still walking with an "Oh I'm just leaving"...till I shoot through the tree limbs over his head.Now I've got my finger off the trigger...but I CAN'T remember which barrel still has a live round! What if he has a weapon! What if he has a friend...or two! I've got one shot left but I don't know which trigger!
So I got a Winchester Defender. One barrel, one trigger, eight shots. I feel better!

 

[355sigfan]

I don't have to worry about a safety, nor fumble with a slide release button that I could never quite locate when I needed to.
END

If you don't know how your weapon works you need to get some training. Pump guns are incredibly simple. I recommend what is called crusier carry for home defense. Have the pump's magazine loaded minus one round. Hvae the chamber empty and have the hammer down. (dry fired before mag is loaded) now to get the gun into action all you have to do is rack the forend. I would also recomend a sidesaddle, some type of rifle sights. I prefer ghost ring and a weapon mounted light. The side saddle is not a must but its nice to have extra ammo even in a home defense situation.

The very thought of a double as a defense gun in this day and age makes me chuckle.
Pat

 

[Okiecruffler]

Trust me

Anyone who decides to welcome themselves into my castle will most certainly not chuckle.

 

[355sigfan]

Anyone who decides to welcome themselves into my castle will most certainly not chuckle.

END

I am sure they would not. But the image of a homeowner purposfully handicaping him or herself with an obsolete firearm is humerious. Heck why not load up a muzzle loader.
Pat

 

[Okiecruffler]

Well, you probably think it's funny I carry around a 5 shot revolver too. But what the heck, I'm a humorous kinda guy. But with a few days worth of practice every week, I don't feel too terribly handicapped. Variety, it makes life interesting.

 

[355sigfan]

Well, you probably think it's funny I carry around a 5 shot revolver too.
END

Depends on why you carry it. If its a small 5 shot 38 and you carry it because you can't conceal anything larger. I couldn't fault your choice. If it were a Colt Single action army loaded with 5 for safety. I would find that humerious as its the same technology as the double. But to each their own.
Pat

 

[Gabby Hayes]

If you don't know how your weapon works you need to get some training. Pump guns are incredibly simple.

That's all well and good in some parts of the country, but darn near impossible in others. The first shotgun I ever owned was a short-barreled Maverick 88 that a widow friend's husband had left in the house. She didn't know how it worked, and neither did I, but when I picked it up to look at it I discovered that the magazine was loaded, or at least it looked that way to my untrained eyes. She didn't have a manual for it, and I didn't know anything about pump shotguns. Her husband had known the chief of the local suburban police department, so she called him to see if one of his officers could swing by and check the gun out to at least see if it was safe and in working order. A patrol car rolled up about an hour later. To the amazement of both the woman and myself, the officer had not a clue how to work the action on a pump shotgun. His department used autoloaders, which they qualified with at most once each year, if they had to. It turned out that a shell was chambered and the action locked. No one knew about the release button, nor were we in a hurry to experiment with a loaded shotgun. I ended up calling an out-of-state relative who owned a Remington 870 and who talked us through unloading this beast. So much for the "incredibly simple" part. That probably applies in Alaska and most rural parts of the country where folks are used to handling various types of firearms, but in the area where I live gun ownership is not all that common, nor is there an overabundance of local training resources.

 

[355sigfan]

Gabby I guess I am having a hard time considering a pump shotgun complicated. But with anygun you should get some basic training on how to use them.
Pat

 

[PJR]

But the image of a homeowner purposfully handicaping him or herself with an obsolete firearm is humerious. Heck why not load up a muzzle loader.

One of the advantages of a double gun is the ease with which two rounds can be loaded if domestic circumstances require the gun be left empty. And while your muzzle loader comment is clearly gratuitous, I could feel comfortable with a loaded front loader because I have a fairly well though out response plan already developed.

To paraphrase Dave McC, "software is more important than hardware" and having a plan that works is fair more important than the marginal advantages of one type of firearm over another.

So while I might not opt for the front loader, I sleep just as well with a double as a pump gun. Not because of the gun but because I have a plan.

I think it's bad form to "chuckle" about anyone's choice of firearms.

Paul

 

[Gabby Hayes]

Pat, I fully agree on the training issue. Most of my reasoning behind relying on a SxS is its simple (at least for me) manual of arms. There's finally hope on the horizon for those of us in Ohio since we'll finally have a CCW law on the books after April 7th. Part of the statute requires 12 hours of training, including some range time, so I'm hoping that a program or two will be started locally to educate us less fortunate (i.e. "gun challenged') city folk. If we're lucky we can talk them into covering some basic long-gun handling techniques. If not, I think I'm ready to move to your neighborhood anyway. It actually got down BELOW ZERO the other night!

 

[355sigfan]

The problem I have with the double is the low capacity. We train people to shoot at least 2 rounds as a minimum standard response even with shotguns. Badguys usually work with partners as well. You could very well be out of ammo when the gun is needed.
Pat

 

[Okiecruffler]

" Badguys usually work with partners as well. "

So do I.

 

[PJR]

" Badguys usually work with partners as well. "

So do I.

Me too and at least two of them have teeth and are very predisposed against strangers in the middle of the night.

Paul

 

[355sigfan]

Me too and at least two of them have teeth and are very predisposed against strangers in the middle of the night.
END

Reminds me of a good story about a friend of mine. He investigated a burglary. When he got to the house he observed nice white carpet inside the residence. He started to take his boots off when the home owner said nevermind the boots. When he got inside he saw blood everywhere. It appears the home owner had a Rotweiler that proceeded to eat the burglar. He did excape but not without leaving a lot of his blood behind. Never did catch him. But that mans house was never broken into again.
Pat

 

[Okiecruffler]

Dog, smog, The wife is meaner than any dog I've run into. To be fair tho' she does use a pump.

 

[Kalindras]

My plug nickel's worth...

While I'm certainly no expert, and can't even pretend to be convincingly, I'll toss in the line of reasoning I went with this last weekend.

To begin, I picked up the sweetest Rossi Overland Coach Gun (20 gauge, mule ear rebounding hammers) at the Big Town Gun Show. I'm opening a business in about a month, and we're catering to the late-night crowd. Unfortunately, since we're doing this in an area where a lot of those folks may be drunken college kids, or just plain drunks, I wanted something to put under the counter, to persuade folks that they'd rather leave than try to smash the place up. For that reason, I wanted a shotgun. I went with the double for intimidation, pure and simple. While the rack of a pump is awfully high for recognizability, it is amazing (and testament to the power of Hollyweird's conditioning of the public) how the human mind connects the cocking of a hammer with imminent danger.

Thus, while there were scores of coach guns available in various configurations, I went with the exposed hammers. There were other factors to consider, as well.

1. My wife/partner is VERY edgy about handling a gun that cannot be visually ascertained to be unready.

2. While it is improbable, I worried that a hammerless gun, if dropped, could be jarred into discharging. With the rebounding hammers, the triggers must be pulled to allow the hammers to contact the firing pin. Not an absolute safety, mind you, but every little bit helps.

3. If a situation arises, escalates to the display of force, and then winds down, the weapon can be made unready again with some safety, but without unloading it.

These were all factors I considered. Sure, a pump gives more shots, but I figured that a double was about as idiot-proof as it could get without resorting to handing out sticks to the staff. Now, how valid any and/or all of these points are, is up to the individual. This is just how I justified it all to myself and my wife.

Oh, and on two final notes, I'd've bought the Rossi anyway, since I'd been looking for a coach gun for years, and this one is in CHERRY condition. Also, we each bought a handgun to carry with our soon-to-be-had CCLs. Since we'll be each be making deposits, I want us each to be able to carry up to the bank, even though I don't believe we're allowed inside with them (this is a point I'll be clarifying in class, though!).

 

[ducati]

i have always entertained the idea of a double barrelled gun for travel.
like overnight stays in hotels. the doubles break down to fit in a bag, and can be reassembled in the room. alot easier than the 870 can be.

 

[labgrade]

" ... A side by side shotgun has a very formidable look to it, especially from the muzzle end, ... "

Not in a dark room. Nobody's gonna see much of anything.