Draw your weapon to fire or to scare away?

[Deanimator]

That liberal minded DA is likely right to charge you, having a concealed carry permit and carrying a firearm doesn't turn you into a law enforcement officer. If you draw a weapon, even though the criminal is committing a crime against the old, defenseless woman. You now have crossed the line into the area of committing a crime yourself.

I don't know how other states view of the level of responsibility a CCW holder has in a case where you draw a firearm, but Ohio's was related to me that you exercise every possible act you can to defuse a potential violent encounter before even considering drawing a firearm. The scenario you describe is an escalation of a potentially violent encounter in my opinion.

We must live in different Ohios.

In MY Ohio, when not in home or auto, you are required to ATTEMPT to withdraw if you can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. You are also permitted to defend another with deadly force, if were the roles reversed, you would be entitled to use it to defend yourself. I doubt anyone would even THINK about prosecuting you for defending that old woman, even if you did so on Carty Finkbeiner's lawn, with Toby Hoover looking on in horror, terrified that the robber might be harmed in some way.

 

[jon_in_wv]

It sounds to me like a case of alls well that ended well. If the OP felt threatened then its natural to take a stance to defend himself. Who here actually thinks the actions of those four was innocent? I disgusts me that the intended victim here is even questioned on how he defends himself. You all sound like a bunch of gun grabbing liberals second guessing every action he took. I understand where you are coming from but c'mon a law abiding man traveling with his woman shouldn't have to wait until he is ACTUALLY getting attacked and killed to defend himself. Even if they attacked are you going to second guess when he draws his weapon? Is there some magical point where he has taken enough of a beating that he can finally defend himself? Is there a point where he hasn't been beaten enough? I hate it that we as the law abiding are forced to do the arguing and debating and justifying while crook is the one protected by the law. We are the ones who should be applauding the fact that he didn't become a victim. That is good enough for me.

 

[wrs840]

I have two friends who just this month had "parking lot scenarios" (one at the bathroom side of a gas station, one at a Home Depot) that made them believe they were seconds away from being a target of thugs in hoodies advancing to within 10 feet. At the gas station it was two guys advancing from the rear of his vehicle, one per side, at the home Depot, it was one guy who actually had his face covered by a bandana. This isn't the whole scenario, but for the sake of THR bandwidth, take it on faith these guys believed a mugging was about to happen.

Both of these friends are Fifty-ish executive-types, not prone to hysterics, and I believe they have the capacity to exercise good situational awareness and sound judgment.

In both instances, displaying, not pointing, a full-sized auto-pistol caused the persons causing the suspicion for high-probabliity of imminent difficulty, to immediately about-face in a quick 180 and retreat.

How would it have benefited the situation to wait until they were ready to fire before displaying a weapon? In both cases, they believe (and it seems highly-probable to me) that they prevented what was almost certainly a mugging-in-process.

Les

 

[Teddyb]

After reading the thread with stories of people who have had to draw or "brandish" their weapon to prevent something bad, that was surely about to happen, from going down, I'm curious to know just how many CCW folks will only draw or show their sidearm if it's to the point where you need to fire etc or draw/show to make the threat walk/run away.

Thankfully, I have not had to do either, and hopefully never will, but I'm still interested in getting the opinions of everyone.

Maybe "scare" is the wrong word. Let me quote 1 of the stories to make my point more clear.

In most states that is a Class B Felony of Reckless Endangerment. You are only permitted to exhibit equal force to offset force against you for self defense. Walking away is always the best solution in any confrontation. The quicker the better! You take that gun out and you are going to jail, that's a guarantee for this former LEO and DOJ Agent. It's also a good way to get shot yourself as well. Walk Away, never up the anti!

 

[9MMare]

Teddy and others....in the scenario of multiple assailants, esp those splitting up.....what if an attempt to leave is unsuccessful? Nowhere to go or they catch up to you?

When does disparity of force enter into this? Does it even if they dont show a weapon? (Bernie Goetz comes to mind as a possible example, altho they had a screwdriver.)

 

[w_houle]

do you think a person who was about to commit a crime will run to authorities

Sure do, my sister would do it all the time: She would punch me and say I started it. Same here: Honest, officer... all I did was stand there and they 'went crazy' and drew a gun and threatened to shoot me. Here's a description of the gun...

 

[nwilliams]

It sounds to me like a lot of people need to get some proper training.

If you're going to carry concealed then you need to learn how to draw and fire from concealment very quickly. Most people are not good at this because they don't get properly trained and don't practice it enough.

You need to recognize the threat and keep enough distance between you and it so that have time to draw and fire. Keep your hand on the gun if you really must but understand that as soon as your gun leaves the holster YOU have taken the situation to the next level.

If you know for sure that someone is coming at you with a weapon and you feel your life is in immediate danger then by all means draw your gun and be prepared mentally for what is going to happen next.

However if you see someone suspicious coming your way then you need to get as much distance between you and him as you can, even if it means turning around or crossing the street. You don't draw your gun and hope that they just keep on walking.

I should add that if you feel a threat is coming in your direction the best course of action to take if there is no exit is to inform the threat that they are getting too close and to back off. If the suspicious character or characters continue to advance then let them know that you are armed and willing to defend yourself. If your verbal warnings are disregarded then you have to make a quick decision and you better hope it was the right one.

As I said earlier it helps to get proper training and learn threat assessment techniques from qualified individuals. If you ever have to use a gun in self defense it goes a long way to help convince a jury that your actions were justified.

 

[divemedic]

In most states that is a Class B Felony of Reckless Endangerment. You are only permitted to exhibit equal force to offset force against you for self defense. Walking away is always the best solution in any confrontation. The quicker the better! You take that gun out and you are going to jail, that's a guarantee for this former LEO and DOJ Agent. It's also a good way to get shot yourself as well. Walk Away, never up the anti!

1 The saying is up the ANTE. (poker term)
2 Actually, in most states self defense is a valid legal defense for any charges stemming from drawing a firearm when in fear of being attacked, and is not considered to be lethal force. For example, in my state the case of Riviero v. State, 871 So.2d 953 (Fla. 3DCA 2004) says that pointing a gun to ward of an attack is, as a matter of law, the use of "non-deadly" force. Former LEO/DEA agent or not, you are most certainly WRONG (at least in Florida, and I do not feel like researching case law in other states)

Whether you agree with it or not, brandishing a weapon is against the law and as law abiding gun owners that's just something we have to understand.

You are wrong as well.

 

[MrCleanOK]

This is a big fat grey area, but here's how I look at it.

Brandishing a firearm is not an automatic situation diffuser, and may in fact escalate a situation. That gun needs to stay in the holster until you have mentally committed yourself to using it. There is a threshhold for behavior that warrants a deadly force response, and once that threshhold is crossed it's time to take action. If the aggressor can drop their behavior back below that threshhold before triggers start getting pulled, deadly force is no longer warranted. If you train consistently there isn't a whole lot of time for the aggressor to change their behavior, but it can be done.

 

[nwilliams]

Whether you agree with it or not, brandishing a weapon is against the law and as law abiding gun owners that's just something we have to understand.

You are wrong as well.

If you live in Florida then you may be OK. If I remember correctly Florida did pass a law that says you can draw your gun even if you don't intend to use it, however I think it's the only State that legally allows that.

 

[9MMare]

The definition of 'brandishing' is also different between the states.

 

[qajaq59]

I'ts fine to say I'll do this or that. But I really don't think you can predict what you will do until a situation is right in front of you. Then you'll know, and hopefully you'll make the right decision.

 

[danprkr]

I'ts fine to say I'll do this or that. But I really don't think you can predict what you will do until a situation is right in front of you. Then you'll know, and hopefully you'll make the right decision.

More true than you know. If I'd been asked about hypothetical situations before I had my first scrape I'd have answered that I'd have been much more blood thirsty than I actually turned out to THANKFULLY be.

 

[Mags]

Nobody is gonna know I am armed until I pull the trigger.

 

[wishin]

In the state of Georgia it's lawful to point a firearm, loaded or not, at another person necessary in defense of life, health, and property.

 

[mljdeckard]

I am frankly baffled at all the bad info flying in here.

For those who are saying that the story posted by the OP justifies pulling, what you are saying is that anytime you have people in front and behind you, and you aren't sure what their intentions are, you are justified in pulling a gun on them.

Here's the truth, regardless of what state you live in, or what stand your ground law says. You can use deadly force when you reasonably believe that there is NO OTHER OPTION. If you still have places to run, room to negotiate, and they aren't yet close enough to hurt you, you are not reasonably in enough danger to use deadly force.

Your gun is not a tool to coerce or negotiate. And while it is true that most armed encounters end with no shots being fired, to PLAN on drawing your gun to scare people away is just as foolish as carrying it unloaded because you don't really think you are going to shoot.

You draw when you are reasonably sure you need to shoot. AS YOU BRING THE GUN UP, you are finalizing that decision. If you weren't yet to that point, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DRAWN.

 

[61chalk]

Teddyb...said...."You are only permitted to exhibit equal force to offset against you for self defense." I do believe thats wrong. A unarmed man can attack an kill another with his bare hands....if you use equal force (only your fists) you could loose your life. If you feel your life is in danger you are not required to use equal force...you are allowed to protect yourself.

 

[tmoore912]

9MMare wrote: The definition of 'brandishing' is also different between the states.

Exactly. Here in Georgia, our GFLs allow for OC or CC, so there is no brandishing law here. When the little hairs on the back of my neck are going crazy like the OPs example, I would of had no problem moving my cover garment out of the way so they could see I was armed. YMMV.

 

[divemedic]

Here's the truth, regardless of what state you live in, or what stand your ground law says. You can use deadly force when you reasonably believe that there is NO OTHER OPTION. If you still have places to run, room to negotiate, and they aren't yet close enough to hurt you, you are not reasonably in enough danger to use deadly force.

Except that there is not one single state where drawing a firearm is the equivalent of deadly force. DISCHARGING a firearm maybe, but not having one in your hand. In fact, merely having a gun in your hand and not pointing it at anyone, it could be argued that you are not using force at all. Brandishing laws vary, and you may not be guilty of brandishing, either.

 

[9MMare]

Exactly. Here in Georgia, our GFLs allow for OC or CC, so there is no brandishing law here. When the little hairs on the back of my neck are going crazy like the OPs example, I would of had no problem moving my cover garment out of the way so they could see I was armed. YMMV.

OC is allowed here in WA St. and we still have brandishing laws. Openly carrying a firearm is defined (rightly so) differently than using it to threaten.

However, here in WA St, if someone complains to the police about an OC, if the complaintants state they felt threatened by your actions, demeanor, location, (even if gun not drawn) etc, then the cops may consider brandishing charges....it may not hold up in court, but it also might. :-/

But again, even the definitions of brandishing differ from st to st.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well since we're drifting into "my state says xxx"....

In Texas it is not considered use of deadly force to display a weapon in this manner. The use of SOME kind of force must be justified, but not the same as needed to justify DEADLY force.

This seems pretty reasonable to me, I'm not sure why a state would say that pulling the gun and not shooting it is a crime, almost sounds like they are encouraging the shoot.

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

 

[Deanimator]

If you still have places to run

Ohio does NOT require you to "run". If outside of home or auto, you have a duty to ATTEMPT to retreat, if you can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. I don't have the slightest duty to turn my back on a dangerous assailant and expose myself by running. I wasn't a fast runner when I was 21. At 21 or 51, I KNOW I can't outrun a bullet and the Army spared no effort to convince me of that. The State of Ohio imposes upon me no duty to try. Arthur Buford discovered this in Cleveland. If you try to rob somebody at gunpoint, the law does NOT expect you to run away. Artie's dead and his intended victim a free man.

There may be states which require you to endanger yourself to protect an assailant. Ohio isn't one of them.

 

[Magic_Man]

All this talk about negotiating or talking your way out of it with CRIMINALS is laughable IMO. They don't care what you have to say, they want your wallet, purse, car, whatever & won't stop until you stop them.

Whether that is just by showing that you're armed or by actually poiting it at them and/or firing, will not be known as each situation is different.


EDIT: Does anyone know where PA stands on this kind of thing?

 

[Kleanbore]

There's an awful lot of lay interpretation going on here.

Do not be mislead into thinking that just because pulling a gun does not constitute the use of deadly force, you can do so with impunity; the distinction probably has more to do with the prescribed penalty than with anything else.

This is the Florida law:

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Missouri law reads almost identically.

The problem is, that's only the part of the code that pertains to weapons violations per se. There's also the law on assault and aggravated assault. The penalty for that is generally a whole lot more severe in all states.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC10.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2010#0790.10

As TexasRifleman has pointed out, the law there specifically provides for drawing a firearm when force is required to defend oneself.

The Arizona law was particularly draconian until recently. The CCW website advised that if multiple toughs were actually shoving you and making verbal threats pertaining to great bodily harm, you could not draw or show your gun or refer to it without risking a charge for aggravated assault. Thankfully that law has been amended, but it is still not a license to pull the gun unless it is necessary.

The law now states that the “Defensive Display” of a firearm by a person is justified “when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.” “Defensive Display of a Firearm” includes "verbally informing another person that you possess or have a firearm available; exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect oneself against another’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical or deadly force; or placing your hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other form of containment or transport". Obviously the previous law could land you in a lot of trouble, wrongly.

http://arizonaccwpermit.com/2009/07...efensive-display-of-a-firearm/comment-page-1/

So--the OP had a couple of people 50 yards ahead of him slowing down and a couple of people behind him speeding up. He apparently felt uneasy, but was pulling the gun necessary in self defense (as in FL); was force immediately necessary to defend himself (TX); was the defensive display of the weapon immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force (AZ)? I wouldn't want to have to depend on successfully arguing any of those assertions.

If the foregoing justifications do not apply, is the issue one of improper exhibition (a weapons violation), or one of assault, or both?

There is apparently no such law on brandishing in Pennsylvania. But--could it be concluded that the OP's action put someone in fear of bodily harm? That could fall under the assault law. The potential penalty is such that it conviction could result in a lifetime prohibition of gun ownership.

Of course, if pulling the gun was justified--immediately necessary, as it were-- that does not mean that firing would then be required. An attacking thug might well readily change his mind at that point.

Best to consult a local attorney who is familiar with the subject at hand and to avoid trying to divine the law means or what what one might argue.

And also best to watch what one puts on a public forum.

 

[gym]

This is a leading question, it has no real answer as each case is different. Trying to answer questions like this will only end up in a big circle jerk.