Drawing, and not firing

[Double Naught Spy]

Say a guy comes at you with a knife or club from a distance of 20 yards and you pull your weapon. he then procedes to stop, drop the weapon and run away...am i supposed to shoot him in the back just because my firearm left it's holster????? i doubt anyone would agree with that thinking.

Whether or not the person is shot in the back isn't really relevant. If the guy ceases his approach with a knife and no longer shows intent (drops it, sheaths it, whatever) and you shoot him in the front, it is just as wrong as shooting in the back. The key concept here is that location of shot placement isn't the legality, but whether or not you were actually justified in firing.

It would seem to me that to say "if you draw you HAVE to shoot" denies you all of the other force level options that having a gun affords you. Its not just a lethal weapon; much more often it ends up being a deterrent.

Ding Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

 

[Geno]

Knife-holder at a distance

The idea of draw but not shoot if the knife-holder is "at a distance" is flowed logic. If the BG is standing at about 35 feet or less, he WILL still poke you before he drops. Our Advanced Tactical instructor's rule was simple, if they are at 50 feet or less, holding a knife and making threat, they are probably able to carry thorugh. At that close distance, wait-and-see won't work.

Doc2005

 

[DunedinDragon]

If you really think about it, you have probably three levels of escalation when carrying a firearm as a civilian, each of which could be useful possibly causing a turn-around in a situation, as well as potentially increasing your preparedness. I'd classify them this way:

Hand on holstered gun ready to draw - Useful if there's a confrontation, but you're unsure about the level of threat (deadly or not).

Gun unholstered but NOT pointed at the person (such as held to your side or behind your leg) - A confrontation with someone with a reasonable suspicion they might have access to a weapon or possibly some indication of their willingness to use a weapon on you, or potentially a disparity of force scenario.

Self-defense shooting: Obvious threat of serious bodily injury or death.

Notice I didn't include pointing the gun at the person. The reason is that unless you're sure of a threat of serious bodily injury or death, this could put you into the area of aggravated assault, which in some states carries a mandatory prison sentence. In my mind, if the threat is enough to cause you to level your gun at someone, it's probably enough to shoot. I'm not saying I'd make that assumption in all cases, but pointing it at someone without the intent to use it tells me there's something not quite justified as far as deadly force. If they back off when you level the gun but before you shoot, THEN there is a case not to fire.

It tends to be accepted the police officers might level their guns at someone even though there's not an imminent threat to their life, but I don't think a civilian could necessarily get away with that in most cases. On the other hand, an officer is typically required at least by procedure to offer a warning, which is not required of a civilian. Therefore, if I have my gun unholstered but not leveled at someone and for some reason I need to escalate to the next level, I won't be giving them any verbal warnings. The intent would be to shoot at that point, not hope for a miracle de-escalation.

 

[FJC]

I agree with those that state that there ARE situations where you may be justified in drawing without firing. As others have said, thinking that if you draw you HAVE to shoot is just limiting options.

The example I like to toss out is similar to one someone else described. Say I'm in a nearly-empty parking lot, heading toward my car. I'm still 30 yards from my car when 6'6" 300lb-of-muscle Bubba steps out from behind my vehicle holding a machete/axe/baseball-bat/whatever. He's standing still, but points at me and says, "YOU! I'm gonna f$$$ you up!"

What should I do? Sure, the first thought is, "run away!" but what if I can't due to a disability? Should I draw and fire? I don't think so, he's still pretty distant. I'm familiar with the Tueller Drill, but we're not talking 21 (or 33) feet, we're talking 75-90 feet.

Should I just put my hand on my gun, preparing to draw? That might be enough of a deterrent, but I'm not sure I want to wait to draw until he starts charging...

My opinion? Draw and aim. He's already committed assault against me (has a weapon, has the means, has made the threat). I'm going to verbally challenge him while I try to retreat ("Stop! Drop that weapon, I'm in fear for my life!"), with my handgun to back it up. If I feel safe enough to do it with my off hand, I'll also get out the cell phone and call 911 (and snap some pictures) - otherwise I'll call 911 at the very first opportunity once I feel it's safe.

Of course, if he charges at me, the situation has changed...

 

[Maxinquaye]

Three times I have reached around and placed a hand on my weapon when someone sketchy was approaching me at night and would not cease advancing after a verbal warning. All three times the men stopped in their tracks, turned and left. Never had to clear leather...the act of reaching around and the look on my face was apparently enough to persuade them I was not easy prey.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A friend of mine, with the Sherrif's Office in York County, VA, once told me, "I draw my gun at least once every shift."

 

[gezzer]

Three times in my career I have pulled the trigger on my weapon, in all three times before the hammer fell the situation changed and I had no need to complete the pull. Thank you Lord, as I have enough bad memories to relive in my dreams.

ALL situations change, keeping up is being professional! Anyone who thinks if you pull your weapon it is used may be in a heap of trouble. When you get past the law you will still have to live with yourself.

Drawing my weapon? In my hand if I think I may need it. When given enough time before I will be armed with a shotgun or rifle.

 

[OpFlash]

I was just thinking about this in the car tonight while sitting at a deserted intersection waiting for the light to turn. I thought what would I do if someone tried to car jack me with a drawn weapon, would I floor it or shoot them? I've always heard that your vehicle is your best weapon and escape tool, and I was at first fairly sure flooring it and getting my head down would be the best and least traumatic option. Then I thought what would I think of myself if he shot and killed the next driver to come through that intersection. I had the opportunity and justification to take out a dangerous criminal but didn't for my own convienience. Of course as far as the authorities would know it would have only been because I was in fear of my life. Somehow I don't think "Your Honor, some people just need killin'" would be a successful defense. It's a tough call, for me anyway.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

OpFlash,

if the guy already had a bead on you, and he was half way proficient with his firearm, pulling your weapon would most likely be a death sentence. I know some rambo wannbes would like to think real life is like the movies and they could somehow take out a badguy that already had a gun at their head but in real life you chance of success would not be worth mentioning.

You best bet would be to get to a safe distance then notify authorities. the chances he would hang around and try again are pretty slim.

The one time I was the victim of an attempted car-jacking they pinned me in at a redlight (using two cars) but luckily only had a tire iron and a couple bats as weapons so I was able to draw my weapon pretty safely.

 

[Zen21Tao]

if the guy already had a bead on you, and he was half way proficient with his firearm, pulling your weapon would most likely be a death sentence. I know some rambo wannbes would like to think real life is like the movies and they could somehow take out a badguy that already had a gun at their head but in real life you chance of success would not be worth mentioning.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind that (1) the average car jacker is not a range proficient firearms enthusiast, that (2) he has a purpose (to steal you car) which requires a level of attention and that (3) fulfilling his request allows you some movement. He expects you to turn over your vehicle. This most likely includes moving your hand down to the shifter to put the vehicle in park and perhaps reach down to unlock your seat belt. This provides the perfect opportunity to retrieve firearm from pocket/side. As you open the door and step out (with gun in hand at side) and the car jacker is stepping in the vehicle you certainly have an opportunity to fire on him while his attention is focused on taking control of your vehicle.

People that fail to defend themselves are the ones that make an overt attempt to draw a weapon that can be seen a mile away. People that do succeed in drawing a weapon when being robbed do so by maintaining that appearance of fulfilling the attacker/robbers orders (e.g. retrieving wallet/keys). Some are also successful by using defelection (much like a magicians slight of hand) such drawing weapon while criminal is focused on receiving wallet being from other hand.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Zen,

All things said...your best defense is still to drive away. It is your greatest chance at survival and escape.

 

[Zen21Tao]

Zen,

All things said...your best defense is still to drive away. It is your greatest chance at survival and escape.

I agree. I was just pointing out that it is possible to "get the drop" on an armed assailant if you need to (e.g. if you can't drive away due to traffic).