Drawing conceal carry weapon--when

[Drop45]

Before I started packing heat, me and a friend were shooting pool in a bar when he got snotty with a big ol biker dude. They exchanged a few unpleasant words. I went to the bathroom and the biker walked in after me. while taking care of business he looks over to me and says 'somebody is going to die tonight'. I looked at him and said 'somebody dies every night'. He bought us both a beer and walked out. What this has to do with your ?? I don't really know. Sometimes no gun is needed even in bad situations.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

Thanks for the replies. I have read the link and am in accord with the advice.

I dress with shirt tucked so my carry is under a tucked shirt and slow to draw. If I am in a quickly developing situation like being approached by skate boarders who may want to cap off an exciting day by bashing someone's (my) head with a board as has happened from time to time, if there is credible threat by an owner of a vicious dog (again has happened from time to time), if I am in a situation where I can reasonably expect to be attacked I need to understand at what point I can prepare for active defense. That is the reason for the question.

Also, I see I need to think more about how to verbally diffuse a situation. Some comments or warnings may cause escalation as well.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

...if I am in a situation where I can reasonably expect to be attacked I need to understand at what point I can prepare for active defense. That is the reason for the question.

Also, I see I need to think more about how to verbally diffuse a situation. Some comments or warnings may cause escalation as well.

There is much wisdom in these statements.

Very much, indeed.

 

[LT.Diver]

If you're afraid of surly teens on skateboards it might be time to put away the gun and get yourself a gym membership.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Guy B. Meredith: ...if I am in a situation where I can reasonably expect to be attacked I need to understand at what point I can prepare for active defense.

If you are in a position in which you can reasonably expect to be attacked, you need to get out of that situation immediately.

It is only after that has failed, or after you realize that it is impossible, that you start planning to "prepare for active defense."

Live in a "stand your ground" jurisdiction? Good. Consider that to constitute a little help in your defense of jurisdiction.

But don't use it to justify drawing and shooting. You do not want to be a suspect or a defendant after a use of force incident.

 

[Tirod]

If you're afraid of surly teens on skateboards it might be time to put away the gun and get yourself a gym membership.

Sorry, wrong attitude. If that was a cure, then Colt would never have invented handguns, right?

God made men, Colt made them equal, etc etc.

You can't buff out and make up a 150 pound difference or 18 inch cut in height. You can't always overcome a handicapping injury that leaves you less mobile than your adversay. You can't always overcome the gender disparity that makes you 75% as capable as your adversary. That last fact is exactly why smart women are arming themselves, and they are helping our 2A rights by doing so.

So lets cut the attitude. I'm well aware of it's source, played the game for years, but at 61, with a titanium rod in one leg, 5'5", and a bad back, going to the gym will NEVER make up enough difference.

The OP posted some credible scenarios and they happen repeatedly in daily life entirely because of that same "Well, you just need to go work out more" attitude. What is really being discussed is "Monkey Dancing." It's the verbal and physical posturing that goes on to determine male heirarchy, who has dominance in a situation. Obviously, the "offenders" in the cases presented question their place, and are attempting to elevate themselves over you.

Why? 75% or more are no longer raised in a household with a dominant male, so they have no one to measure against and have to inflict their methods on the general public.

We now see polite society attempting gangbanger sociology just to fit it, all because they don't know how to do it better and didn't get tossed by Dad until he could say (with pride) Hey dude, you made it.

So, as the OP has pretty well explained, they go out with no intent, but do see a target of opportunity and do the menacing FIRST. That is what creates the situation. Unfortunately, without a body cam to record it, what you have are punk kids pushing the envelope of social behavior. Actual intent to kill isn't often the point, it's just putting YOU in YOUR place, so to speak.

Escalating to deadly force is just going to full triple dog dare and will be seen in a court of law as too much too soon.

In most of those cases verbal sparring is the solution. Not a firearm. Leave it concealed, it would be a tactical mistake to show your hand too soon. The better solution is to approach it by being the adult - which they aren't - and if something needs to be said, it has to be with an attitude of dealing with something that happens all the time and the outcome isn't threatening at all. More like they are just children playing around, verbally brush it off.

"Go work out in a gym?" Not so much, you get the same crap there as on the street, in an environment that is even more prone to engaging the monkey dance. In that regard it might be relevant, as putting up with even more narcissistic muscle boys would certainly be an education.

Better a few years of bare hand combatives in a discipline with no deliberately imposed heirarchy, just an atmosphere of mutual respect, which is what life is supposed to be like.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Before we go much further with the current line in the last few comments, I'd like to take the time to point out something else that was said in post #27:

"Also, I see I need to think more about how to verbally diffuse a situation. Some comments or warnings may cause escalation as well."


It is evident by this that alternative measures to avoid/defuse/de-escallate potentially violent encounters are part of his personal educational agenda. Let's not go off on the deep end about some of the scenarios he's presented and concentrate on the positive aspects of how to handle potentially violent encounters.

 

[MedWheeler]

When in immediate fear for personal safety of oneself or that of another innocent person, a fear that any reasonable person should experience under the same circumstances...

None of the situations described in the OP meets that as phrased, though the last could use some clarification. A voice confrontation is in order first (you demand to be left alone and allowed to go about your business.)

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by tirod: You can't buff out and make up a 150 pound difference or 18 inch cut in height. You can't always overcome a handicapping injury that leaves you less mobile than your adversay. You can't always overcome the gender disparity that makes you 75% as capable as your adversary. That last fact is exactly why smart women are arming themselves, and they are helping our 2A rights by doing so.

Exactly

...at 61, with a titanium rod in one leg, 5'5", and a bad back, going to the gym will NEVER make up enough difference.

Or at 70, with other impairments.

The OP posted some credible scenarios and they happen repeatedly in daily life... . What is really being discussed is "Monkey Dancing." It's the verbal and physical posturing that goes on to determine male heirarchy, who has dominance in a situation. Obviously, the "offenders" in the cases presented question their place, and are attempting to elevate themselves over you.

That is often the case.

Actual intent to kill isn't often the point, it's just putting YOU in YOUR place, so to speak.

Often true.

Escalating to deadly force is just going to full triple dog dare and will be seen in a court of law as too much too soon.

Yep. And so will touching, uncovering, drawing, or otherwise displaying a firearm.

In most of those cases verbal sparring is the solution. ... The better solution is to approach it by being the adult - which they aren't - and if something needs to be said, it has to be with an attitude of dealing with something that happens all the time and the outcome isn't threatening at all. More like they are just children playing around, verbally brush it off.

That may well be the case, or not. That which will diffuse a situation with one group may serve to make it worse with another.

It is a mistake to assume that any thug on the street will react in ways one would expect from someone with a "normal" upbringing. I suggest studying the videos of discussions of real violent criminal actors with William Aprill. To say that what he has observed is eye opening is an understatement. His observations are shocking and alarming, and they will change one's paradigms.

The short version: some violent criminal actors who gain all of their esteem by successfully being the purveyors of violence will not be deterred in the same manner that others may.

So, what to do?

If there is reason to believe that an attack may be expected, create distance. Go elsewhere. Cross the street. Step into a store.

And if those things don't work---if the reaction of the persons about whom you have been worried indicates that they are indeed a real threat--that they are demonstrating a truly violent intent and capability, get ready.

Move off the line, think backstop, and get ready.

Draw a firearm? Consider two things: (1) perhaps you should also have at your disposal a non-lethal solution to which to resort first; and (2) and this has been mentioned in slightly other words, before you draw your gun, know the answer to one very important question--"just what is it that I intend to do with this thing?".

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

LT.Diver, I have absolutely no intent to compare my hand to hand against a physical aggressor. I am 69, physically fit but not athletic 5' 9", 160 lbs. Have you noted the size a 17 year old can be these days? And if they are an aggressive sports participant type? Most of my nephews could use me for a broom.

Forget it. It's not about who is the most buff or skilled, I am considering last ditch self defense.

I've never had a problem avoiding trouble over the last 69 years, but the bad actors are out there and I've decided to improve on the odds of their not being successful. The next question is how to make carry effective while being responsible. The fact that I have decided to maintain my personal dress style and use a deep cover tucked IWB makes a good strategy very important.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Guy B. Meredith: The fact that I have decided to maintain my personal dress style and use a deep cover tucked IWB makes a good strategy very important.

Part of good strategy is to dress and equip oneself to enable fast reaction.

Consider the Tueller drill: a trained officer can draw and fire in the time it takes a fit assailant to close with a contact weapon from a distance of 21 feet--which is not likely to stop said assailant in time, unless the defender is effective and has moved.

Can you do that?

I recently changed to OWB, and to a firearm that does not require a separate action to disengage a safety, after some quality professional training that showed the advisability of the change.

Another thing you might consider is carrying a concealed hammer revolver--as back-up, preferably--in a jacket pocket. Your ability to put your hands on it without making an overt threat can reduce your reaction time.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I read somewhere that if one is gonna carry concealed in public, one must learn to leave "The Finger" at home. I subscribe to this theory. 6'3" very fit 180ish professional martial artist - pro musician as well for 30 years and I have played some pretty nasty joints and encountered more tough guys in the dojo and out than anyone other than a cop.

Physical intimidation is a fact and a punk/yoot/BG whatever talking smack to see if he can intimidate another person is the beginning of an interesting situation. It's why arms and weapons are carried throughout history...the equalizer. We have not claws nor fangs nor huge muscles, we have weapons. Your wits and your verbal skills are weapons as well and what you say and how you walk and "carry yourself" when challenged can determine how things proceed from there.

Verbal/mental/spiritual skills are as important as skill with a weapon - chances are that you'll need these skills more than a handgun. In my world at 58 YO telling me you might attack me depending on how a react will not get me to draw a gun. I'll use other skills/weapons to ascertain the level of commitment and how the attacker intends to proceed until those skills and weapons are deemed ineffective and that my life is in danger. I might move away, engage in conversation, run, etc. but drawing a gun is the last option and it will do us well to develop that mindset as well as other skills sets.

VooDoo

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

Kleanbore,

I have every intent of avoiding a situation where a quick draw is necessary. High noon draw downs are not on the agenda.

My first intent is situational awareness to be able to avoid close confrontation, increase distance and/or take cover THEN draw. My question here goes to working on a strategy in the event I may not be able to add distance or cover.

I am strictly a revolver shooter.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Guy B. Meredith: I have every intent of avoiding a situation where a quick draw is necessary.

Good. Avoidance is by far the best strategy.

But consider this: realistically, if you do ever need your firearm for self defense in a location other than your bedroom, your strategy of avoidance will have failed.

And--and this is extremely important to understand--when that happens, a quick draw will be very necessary.

You may not reach for your gun simply because you think that you may be about to need it. You must be faced with an imminent threat, and your need must be immediate. And you should not expect to be afforded the luxury of going somewhere safe where you can draw your gun at your own pace.

I wondered, when I first heard the title, why Rob Pincus chose "Counter Ambush" as the title of one of his best new books; it sounded like something appropriate for Afghanistan.

But I had not gotten far into it before I realized that the reason is obvious: when your situational awareness fails, you will be faced with what is essentially an ambush--a surprising, chaotic, and very dangerous situation.

Otherwise you wouldn't be in it.

And should that ever happen, you will have to recognize the situation immediately, react instantly, draw quickly while moving off line, and shoot fast and effectively with combat accuracy, while balancing speed and precision.

Do not delude yourself by imagining otherwise.

Get the book, and look into attending Combat Focus Shooting training on the Personal Defense Network tour, or Dynamic Focus Training at a Gander Mountain Academy.

I hope this proves helpful.

 

[PistolPete45]

Way to many what ifs>>> just remember if you pull your gun your also an aggressor in this unless your returning fire . You are threatening deadly force . Use that cell phone 911 and be loud about it . I am so and so am being stalked by two guys threatening me I am at Walmart or whatever I need help . Take a few pictures as well .

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Well stated Kleanbore. I need that book now.

We can't draw until Life or Death is clearly and demonstrably on the line and when that happens at *that* moment all order and predictability fly instantly and the situation goes to chaos. At that instant we have to react as fast as we can and as accurately and precisely as we can with a massive dump of adrenaline as well as other mind numbing components.

Move/draw/shoot skills are paramount for those who carry concealed. It can't be a thing we have to think about - we have to react.

Until that moment happens we have to have better management skills verbally and be developing a strategy.

VooDoo

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by PistolPete45: just remember if you pull your gun your also an aggressor in this unless your returning fire

Let's not spread that misconception.

If you draw, or expose your gun, or put your hand on it, or express an intention to do so, without lawful justification, you will have committed a crime. Both the severity of the crime and the threshold for justification vary among jurisdictions.

But "returning fire" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Study the link in Post #5.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

As someone who is retired LEO and have been involved the worst case scenario when a life is taken, please let me give an insight. It is a different world outside military, security and LEO. You still have the same rights of self protection, but where one of the former would not get sued or charged for drawing a weapon in the line of duty like a risky car stop or finding a busted in door, a regular joe (like me now) can't and shouldn't. Loud bangs still make me automatically grab for my sidearm, but I've tried to retrain myself to leave it in my holster and concealed for everything unless it comes down to my very last resort to protect me or my family.

I know many will disagree with me, but the chance of being disarmed or an accidental discharge/shooting is great when dealing with many high stress situations. Against my life long training, I have learned walking away or just shutting up and leaving is best. I know I'm armed, they don't. Even the most legal shooting still leaves images and memories most won't want to have.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Saddlebag Preacher: Against my life long training, I have learned walking away or just shutting up and leaving is best.

Yes, for anyone other than a sworn officer, avoidance is the best policy, always.

The problem arises when the assailant intends to do violence upon someone else. Shutting up and leaving may not be an available course of action.

When that occurs, and when the defender does not have a viable non-lethal means of defense available, and when well chosen warnings prove ineffective, .....

Of course, none of us will be involved in a car stop.

Your mention of a busted in door provides an opportunity for some advice here: if someone comes home to find indications that there has been an unlawful entry, the thing to do is go somewhere else and call.