Duty Weapon

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Jenrick,
A couple of recommended guidelines:

1. Pick the largest caliber you shoot well. If you can accurately shoot .40 or .45 than choose them over 9mm. Bigger holes will generally cause more rapid incapacitation.

2. If there is no clear winner (and the Glock is in the running still) go with the Glock. It is the simplest to operate, and has a consistant trigger pull without the heavy double action of a DAO. Otherwise choose the gun that you shoot best.

3. Reliability is an issue. Before you make your final selection, make sure your "winner" doesn't have a spotty reliability record. I doubt that will be an issue with Glock, SIG, or HK, but its worth mentioning.

Good luck, and be safe out there.
-David
 
My first choice in terms of brand for a duty weapon is Glock. After that it is splitting hairs for me.

I would try the Glock 21 to see if you are comfortable with shooting .45. If you are, then pick up a 21 for duty and a 30 for off-duty carry. You could just use the 30 for both duty and off-duty. It will use the 13 rd. mags of the 21 and is still short enough to work for off-duty carry. The newer ones even have rails to attach a light to just like the big boys.

If .45 isn't your cup of tea, then I would go to 9mm. I was once a big .40 fan, but over the past few years, I have lost my affinity for it. No real difference in terms of real-world results and the .40 is high pressure which is hard on you and the gun. Also worth considering is the fact that 9mm can be bought super cheap and most dept.'s training budgets are skimpy to say the least. This translates into you buying quite a bit of training ammo on a patrolman's salary.
If you go with a single 9mm for duty and off-duty use, I would go with the Glock 19. Big enough to function as a duty pistol, good capacity (15+1) and Glock-reliable while still being compact enough for easy CCW.
If you go with one for duty and one for off-duty use, I would go with the 34 and the 26. The 34 has a longer sight radius, is just as reliable and you will get just enough recoil reduction due to the differing weight distribution to make a difference. You will be carrying on-duty in a holster so concealment and barrel length aren't issues. The 26 can use the same mags and is small enough to use as an ankle/vest gun.

Just my .02.

W
 
P7 is a bit big and heavy for a BUG. I'd like a P7 or some sort or the P220 as the primary but it really is a very personal decision and you may need to think if 17 or 19 rounds plus one in the chamber like the Glock 17 would be more comforting to you than 7-8 plus one rounds of some of the 45acp weapons.

I would feel more comfortable with a 45acp but don't let anyone tell you 9x19 can't get the job done with good ammo. I assume you will be working in an area too where peole do not wear very heavy clothing very often either which may retard hollowpoint bullet performance which helps all duty ammo but is more important with a 9mm.

Also consider one of the S&W models with a manual safety. Many police officers are killed with a snached duty pistol and a auto carried on safe along with retention holsters and good training reduce this possibility greatly.
 
And, yet another vote for the G22/27 combo.

Here's a +1 to help you along: Hit up your Dept. Armorer, and have a letter drafted up to send to Glock--authorizing you to purchase your sidearm factory direct.

When I was filling that function, Glocks could be had from the factory, on Dept letterhead, for $380, with night sights, and 3 mags. This price was the same on all but the competition models, which cost about $20 more.

While you're at it, as soon as you complete the Acedemy and your FTO, set yourself up for the Glock Armorer's course--if you don't have that already.

Good luck, and stay safe!
 
While you can't try every gun on the list, I'd see if you could try a Glock 27 before purchase. You may find the recoil quite objectionable especially with hotter ammo and a non finger extension magazine which enhances concealability. Be a shame to spend $500 or so on a gun you dislike.
 
Out of your list I think I'd give closest look to the S&W pistols.

S&W 3rd generation autos are everybit as good as the SIGS, HKs, etc. out there today. If you buy used you can get a great deal. If you want to go new, the value line (the 410, 457, 908, 910) are every bit as good as the regular S&Ws and priced at prices that are competitive with Taurus. So, you can get a gun that is as good as the others, but being a new officer I assume finances will be a consideration and the S&W can save you some cash. Used, they just don't command the prices of used a SIG or HK, and new you can get the value line and save a lot over the other big name guns.

If it was me my first choice would be the value line S&W or the S&W 99 (though the 99 is quite a bit more).

Caliber depends on two factors-
I am happy with 9mm, if I can choose my own ammo. 9mm can be every bit as good as .40 or even .45 with the right loads. If you department issues your duty ammo (probably does), then if they issue a load I'd trust if I was buying it I'd probably consider 9mm (more ammo). If they will issue unlimited practice ammo that is a consideration in favor of bigger calibers (if capacity doesn't put 9mm over for you), but if you have to buy your own ammo after so many rounds then 9mm will also give considerable savings on practice ammo.

At any rate, I'd be very comfortable with any of the big three auto calibers with decent premium ammo loadings.

Another consideration, you mention a BUG. Does your BUG need to be on that list? Can you afford both a primary and a BUG at this time?

If you are only buying one, and it must be on this list, I'd strongly lean to the 8 shot, single stack, 9mm, S&W 908. It is a smallish concealable gun that would make a great BUG, yet it is big enough that it would work for now as your primary duty gun. Then, when you have a little more money spring for the 910 (15 round double stack 9mm) or simliar 410 (.40S&W) or similar 457 (.45ACP) as your primary. Another thing to think about is buying both now, but buying used (you can get a 910/410/457 used and a 908 used for about the price of one non-value series S&W, SIG, Glock or HK new).

Other than the S&Ws honorable mention goes to the SIG 2340 (the SIG Pro line is a little less money than other SIGs and is polymer so probably a bit lighter while carrying all day) or the SIG 239 (available in 9mm or .40S&W and like the S&W 908 the single stack design will work as a duty gun quite well and be just small enough to double as a BUG).

Heck, go with the S&W 908 or SIG 239 and you can forget this stuff about same MAO or caliber or compact and full size versions for your BUG v. duty gun. You can use two of the exact same gun as your BUG and duty gun. Hard to beat that interchangability (one set of mags, spare parts, and you can concentrate your practice time on one gun thus being even better with that gun).
 
Today is my department qualification (annual)
I'm changing out weapons for the first time in about 5 years.

I'm going from 1911's to Polymer based weapons.

I am going to qualify with the Steyr M40 and the M40A1.

I really like these guns.
 
Since everyone's gonna recommend different guns, go to the shop and handle them, see what feels good. Then go find some place to rent 'em and give them a try.

That said, i like the Beretta 92 or 96. Never been a fan of the Sig or Glock triggers, but most of the Berettas i've handled have been pretty nice.
 
I very very strongly recommend you not try to get away with buying just one gun. Eventually you will find yourself needing a second. I try to duplicate my carry rig in case myy pistol becomes disabled or damaged through pistol defect (unlikely) or a scuffle somewhat likely or routine maintenance and my smith is busy so I have to leave it...(fairly likely).


Secondly you will find yourself going to court...going to training...going to various offices...going to your kids school, play or baseball game....there really isn't one gun that will fit all occasions and I have met guys who have tried that method. One guy tried to cram a .38 in his boot cut jeans and an ankle holster cause it was all he had.....not only did it look like his ankle had a tumor...but it eventually got loose and fell out of his pants....that was funny, but it could have been bad.
 
I carried a Govt model for about 10 years, and then an HKP7M8 before I was issued a Glock 35. If I had a choice from the list you have, I would strongly consider an HK. I really like Sigs, and carry one occassionaly as an off duty gun. But, for a uniformed duty gun, I like the idea of a gun that has a manual safety. I thought that was one of the strongest points for a 1911. Alot of the HK's with the right trigger variation in 40 or 45 would make an outstanding duty gun.

Please consider how long it might take the average neandrathal to figure out how to make the gun he snatched from you go bang. A Glock, instantly. But, while he is trying to figure out the thumb safety on an HK or the wierd manual of arms on a P7, he could get shot alot of times with the 642 you have concealed. Smith autos are good, but, for me anyway, that stupid thumb safety goes the wrong way. In moments of extreme stress, its unatural for your thumb, 70% of your grip strength, to push AWAY from the tool that may save your life.
 
I've carried the M9/92F. It works fine, lists long time. Problem is that it's a bit too big for CCW. So I carry a G26. Well, I decided to try IDPA shooting. It's a game but it did show me something, I was fumbling with the M9, because of the Decocking safety. There were time it wouldn't go boom, why I forgot to release the decocker. I learned a lesson, keep things the same,

I still carry the Berreta but only when my BG sense starts ringing loudly. More rounds per mag than the g26. But I really notice the weight and bulk when I do.

Just my two cents. Honestly, I'd go with Glocks.
 
Before I would look at particular models of handguns, I’d make some criteria...

First, what type of holsters are you authorized for and what security level will you use?

In my case, we are currently mandated to select from an approved list of firearms, all of which have a manual safety which must be engaged while in the holster. Our two approved holsters are level 2 retention. The department is considering (and has already pretty much decided) to remove the manual safety requirement...but has not said anything about approving holsters with higher retention levels. At this point I would not carry a handgun with no safety in a lower retention holster. You have to evaluate what level of retention you want on the holster and the gun itself. For example, you may want a simpler weapon (such as a Glock) with greater holster retention, or a quicker draw with more safety features built into the gun.

Do you want an external safety?

If yes, Glocks are a No-Go unless modifications are authorized. If not then most of the manufacturers you list offer DA-Only variants.

Do you want extra safety gizmos?

Smith & Wesson 3rd gen. Pistols mostly all have magazine release safeties. Cool for weapon retention, bad if you have to shoot a round and have no mag. (Mags can get accidentally released...Not totally common but it happens.) P7's have the squeeze cocker...It is a neat system but takes practice and may not combine with otehr weapon systems well.

What caliber do you want?

I like the .45, and carry a USP .45 on duty. I think the 9 is fine, however, and if I was mandated to carry a 9mm I’d be OK with that. (I often carry a 9mm P7M8 off duty.)

Capacity...Is it important?

Most will tell you that you don’t need more than 8 to 10 round mags. WELL...I’ve reviewed several shootings that involved a much larger round count. Not for bad aim either. Now, it’s most certainly a law enforcement “running towards gunfire” thing. (Hopefully one would not place themselves in a situation that could deteriorate like this while off-duty or as non-sworn.) Maybe it’s a Los Angeles County phenomena, but if you are in a fight with a guy who has an AK or SKS, you may have to employ suppressive fire. Maybe your initial shooting encounter gets the locals pissed and ready to go, or maybe there are suspects working in concert so you’ll have to deal with multiple suspects from different directions. You will have to evaluate your area and potential for these scenarios when you select your weapon and your spare magazine holders. (I carry three spare 12rd. Mags on my belt and two more in the bail out bag. I know many deputies who carry 4 spare Beretta or HK magazines on their belt.)

So now I’ll comment on the guns themselves:

Berrata: Model 92, Model 96, 9000s Type F
I like the Beretta. It is our issue weapon. It is accurate, reliable, and durable for what needs to be done. It is large, and it is DA/SA with a safety. There are those who will find it too large for their hands, while others will find it very comfortable for a DA 9mm..

Glock: 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 26, 27, 30, 31, 34, 35, 36
Glocks are great guns. Simple, reliable, exceedingly durable. If you like ‘em, go for it. All models listed (except sub-compacts) would be great duty guns.

H&K: P7-H8, P7-M8, P7-M10,P7-M13, USP-9, USP-45, USP TAC-45
I carry a USP45 on duty and a USP45C or P7M8 off duty. I really like them. Recoil is minimal, they have been 100% reliable, and very accurate. I also like the position of the USP safety...It’s a DA but it’s as close as I can get to a 1911 in an approved weapon. (And have a few extra rounds to boot!

Sig Sauer: P220, P225, P226, P228, P229, P239, P2340, P245
Another good gun...No safety so use tactics and retention accordingly (as with Glocks)

Smith and Wesson: 410, 457, 908, 910, 3913, 3953, 4013, 4053, 4513, 4553, 4043, 4006, 4046, 4563, 4583, 4586, 5906, 5946, 5903, 5943, Model 99
I carried a 4506 for a while and really like them. I wanted more rounds, the USP feels a bit more comfortable, and after accidentally releasing the mag in the holster, I didn’t ever feel totally comfortable with the mag-release safety. I’ve heard reliability horror-stories but all my S&W’s have been reliable. (I have a 4506, 4566, 3913TSW, and had a 6906. All 100%.)
 
There's certainly a lot to choose from. I'm partial to single stacks for my hands so I'd be looking at the Sig 220 and the S&W 4506. I've shot and liked both with the P220 getting the edge over all and a P225 for off duty.

It's really subjective.
 
Chaim: Thanks for the info about the S&W, I know very little about their line of firearms, so this was appreciated.

Since almost everyone is bringing up caliber I'll address my thoughts on it. I don't feel particullary under gunned using a 9mm round, nor do I feel like a .45 is to big. Additionally this last summer I interned with an agency that deals specifically with SWAT training, I was able to pick a lot of brains.

What all the info I gathered boiled down to was: Shot placement is the most important part. Shoot what you hit best with under pressure. However all things being equal the bigger the hole the better. PRACTICE!

I fortuneately don't have to worry about the cost of practice or carry ammo. Additionally I have absolutely no problems with the carry round my department manadates. So in my personal feelings one caliber doesn't have that much of advantage over the other unless I shoot it better in a particular platform.

In regards to holsters: I'm required to carry a level 3, I'm looking at a level 4 possibly, but I need to see how much that'll slow down my draw compared to the level 3. I know that the more difficult it is to figure out how to make my weapon go bang it is, the less likely it'll be taken away and used succesfully. However I feel that I need to counter balance that by it being as simple for me to use under stress as possible.

So to update my range list for the weekend: I'm going to add a S&W (not sure what the local range has to rent) to my previous list. I need to see how I like the safety on S&Ws before I do much more.


-Jenrick
 
sgt127 said:
... If I had a choice from the list you have, I would strongly consider an HK. I really like Sigs, and carry one occassionaly as an off duty gun. But, for a uniformed duty gun, I like the idea of a gun that has a manual safety. I thought that was one of the strongest points for a 1911. Alot of the HK's with the right trigger variation in 40 or 45 would make an outstanding duty gun...
Click to expand...
I have to agree. First let me preface my comments with the statement that you have to go with a gun that feels right in your hand. Now, as far as a suggestion, I would look at the H&K USP line. They are completely reliable, shoot any ammo you throw at them, durable, and have a manual safety. A USP in 40 or 45 for duty and a USPc in the same caliber for backup/off duty would be my suggestion.
 
I would go with a G17 and a Jframe smith in a ankle holster. I carried one there for 20 years. The new scandium .357 magnum j frames weigh almost nothing. The recoil is less than I expected. You can use the 38 rounds for practice if you need to. But I assure you, if you ever have to shoot the little Magnum in the line of duty, you will never feel the recoil.
Just a thought.
 
Not to start the caliber wars but pick your caliber first; I'd look at 40 or 45

40 - if your hands are smaller

45 - if they're not

Then either the SIG P220 or the HK USP with their smaller brothers as BUGs

Both pleasingly accurate for carry weapons, tough as nails and utterly reliable.

Not a Glock, Berreta or SW Fan (other then their revolvers)
 
What calibe do you think you will shoot best? How was your accuracy witht he G22 you shot? Do you think the recoil of the .40 caliber in the polymer frame was too snappy? Is the thickness of the G21 frame too much for you? How are you with the da/sa transition?

Having experience with every brand you listed, I will make the following suggestions. But in the end it is up to you. For a 9mm duty pistol go with whatever model feels best to you. In the 40S&W and 45acp category I really like the S&W offerings. They are good stout guns.
 
You need to talk to the firearms instructors in your department and find what they recommend for patrol carry. Part of the weapons listed are for plain clothes and off duty, they are not duty sized weapons. Find out what most other officers carry, in a hot situation ammo and mag compatiably are real nice to have. Find out if holsters are issued and what is avialable. Don't get a 9 if everyone else is carring 40 or 45 they will laugh you out of the building. Get something with a rail, at night tac lights and lasers are handy.
 
I like my issued P220R .45ACP and I got a P239 9mm for off-duty. I also have a S&W airweight .38 snubbie and Kel-tec P32 for pocket carry.
 
I'd go with the USP .45 if I were in your shoes. If you want a 9mm or shoot it better than the .45 the P7 would be my second choice for duty.
 
With regard to your holster options I can recommend the PRO-3 holster. It is considered a level 3 but is much faster to draw from than some other level 3s. I felt very comfortable with this type of holster and it saved my life once.
 
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