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ESEE X, where X < 5

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by AStone, Jul 25, 2012.

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  1. conw

    conw Member

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    The "long" side I was referring to is the "tongue."

    The reason mine's mounted backwards is because I never knew it went any other way, but with the type and angle of these sheaths, to me it makes more sense. also, the 'tongue' reduces the movement of the sheath on the belt, at least for me, since it sits snugly against the body. I also find this to be the case with OWB mounting with no belt.

    Being able to mount it without taking off the belt is convenient for me. I like that it doesn't easily come off the belt, although I can get it off without having to remove the belt.
     
  2. AStone

    AStone Member

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    While you were posting that, I turned mine around so that it's mounted like yours: 1) screws are coming through the sheath slot, and 2) the clip tongue is now 'inside', against me.

    I get it. I think this may indeed be better. The first clue was trying to unclip the clip from my gym shorts while it was the 'correct' way. The hook on the short part of the clip (not the tongue) catches the fabric, making removal tedious. With the tongue on the inside, removal is easier. I suspect the same may be true about removing it from a belt without unbuckling, but I'll have to try that later.

    The tongue also will probably improve the comfort level, especially with gym shorts or other pants with no belt.

    I'll need even longer screws to fit the washers in. I may also need some washers under the screw heads; there's not much plastic on the sheath holding those heads.

    The experiment continues ...
     
  3. conw

    conw Member

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    In theory the washers could be put either place (outside or clip-side) and achieve the aim of buffering against excess screw tension although clip-side would work better. And remember, they compress way down if you use them properly. On the other hand they may not be needed at all.

    You'll probably want some blue thread locking compound once you get all this figured out, if you decide to stick with the setup. Do you have a photo of it currently?
     
  4. AStone

    AStone Member

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    No photo yet. I'll try to post one soon even though my cell does not do closeups well.

    I used some 400 grit sand on the clip tonight to take down some sharp and rough edges.

    Getting it off the sweat pants (donned after the stinking heat subsided) was tricky,
    especially with a splint on my left ring finger.

    But overall, the concept is starting to grow on me.

    I'll need to try some other positions, and on the E3, just for kicks.
    Which one will wind up as EDC and which rides in the pack is still up for grabs.
    ______

    ETA - I just held the clip on the Iz next to the E3 sheath.
    There may be only one position that the holes line up.
    It may not work well on the 3 stock sheath.
    Fortunately, I like the belt clip that came with the 3 OK.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  5. DAdams

    DAdams Member

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    The Devils in the Details

    Came home from a recent trip tonight and found a box had arrived...assuming its the Clip.
    Reading your trials and tribulations Nem it's late and I am too BD to go through
    The futzing tonight. Even yall's descriptions were making my head hurt. ;)
    Hopefully you can post some pics. Sounds like a trip to the local hardware store may be in order? Got any specs on those screws?
    Sounds like a simple diagram would be in order from the manufacturer but perhaps unfettered creativity is simply in order.
     
  6. AStone

    AStone Member

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    DA, i just carried the one's that came with it to the hardware store,
    and said I'd like the same but half again as long with Philips heads.

    It's a local store with half a row of machine screws and bolts.

    Took them 2 minutes to pull out the right ones. Two cost me $0.75.

    At the big box store, I'd have been lucky to find them at all,
    and if I did, I'd have had to buy a box of 50 for $9.95.
     
  7. DAdams

    DAdams Member

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    Is that the size you recommend or should I get those and something additional by an eighth to accommodate the washers.
    I have an Ace type place near me they are usually helpful keeping the sorters from mixing product.
    The good news, sounds like it will fill the bill for what I'm seeking. The g that is.
     
  8. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Sorry for my delay, DA. Just logging on after a long, delicious sleep on a chilly night -
    rained off and on all night with occasional really righteous thunder but with no wind. Awesome.

    But I digress.

    Screw lengths. Yes, definitely get an assortment.
    In hind sight, I'd get two (or 4) of each of all lengths
    between original and twice as long. That may be only 2.

    In my case, since I don't have a torx driver (yet, but need a set; same as the screws for ESEE scales, yes?),
    I'd get a set the same as originals with philips to experiment.

    PS: I'd also see if they have screws and nuts in black. Screws maybe; I doubt the nuts.

    I don't know if I'll have time for photo today - busy day coming - but by tmw latest.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  9. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/spyderco-knives/images/SPGCLIPb.jpg

    That's the correct mounting method.
    As pointed out, the o-rings go between the sheath and the clip so you can get a tight fasten between the two without ripping the material apart. It also helps keep your rivets from getting damaged.

    Nem, you're probably running into the "well everyone knows that" expectation problem in some of this and the idea that people will look at the net instead of printing and sending instructions. With small operations this is pretty common.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  10. DAdams

    DAdams Member

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    My Setup

    I ordered the Izula with the "kit" so it came with a plate and metalic clip/loop.
    Will accomodate a 1.75 inch belt and flip flops for mounting one side or the the other. This would accomodate many carries, vertical on belt, horizontal on a large belt loop (sloppy) and some backpack strap configurations.

    I bought the G Clip in the hopes that it would do the tighten up on narrower belts for crossdraw horizontal carry and up to 3 o'clock strong side (not an ideal position). I have some shoulder mobility issues right now which are dictating this orientation.

    I was able to use some of the hardware that came with the "kit" so no trip to the hardware store necessary. I used the screws inserts and washers from the Izula plate kit which worked well and is black (FWIW). The real handy deal is the black inserts that cam with the kit were of a diameter that would fit through the slot, the items that came with the G wouldn't, again making my set-up take about 10 minutes of fiddling to put together.
    I need some thinner synthetic washers. Those jumbos are ok, but need to be trimmed, which I may do. Cut them in at least half or more.

    I'll get back with a carry report later.

    [​IMG]
    Izula plate and clip from the kit.

    [​IMG]
    How I have it setup for horizontal cross carry. Note the two screws and threaded sleeves.

    [​IMG]

    The G Clip fits like a glove on the Wilderness Instructor Belt. Which was great news.
    http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=2309&parent=142
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  11. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Well, DA, I'm glad one of us is successful. Looks good. Thanks for a nice report with pics. Yours are better than mine would be.

    I just spent 2 frustrating hours trying out several mount options for the g-clip on both E3 and Iz. (Frustration from needing three hands but only having 1.5 (splint). :banghead:

    Short story: it will not work on my E3 stock sheath at all. Period. I turned it every way but loose. Won't fit. Holes don't line up in any configuration except one on the uneven top part of sheathe that holds blade, so won't tighten down. OK.

    I tried three configs on Iz, but back to straight up at 3 o'clock, the way I started but this time with spacers, but had to use longer screws from inside clip, so won't grab the larger holes putting it on 'backwards' (a la Conwict mount), so the tongue is against the sheath a la approved mount.

    Verdict: I don't like this mount as much because it doesn't slide on/off sweat pants easily (again, see splint) like the Conwict mount does. I'm sure it'll be fine for belt. Will try later.

    Once splint is removed, I'll try some different screws to reverse it. We'll see.

    Going to hold judgment until then.
     
  12. AStone

    AStone Member

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    On a lark, while on errands, I stopped by the police station today (next door to one errand) with my E3.

    A middle-aged officer was walking in.

    "Excuse me, sir. Do you have time for a quick question about knives?"

    "Sure," he said, smiling.

    I explained that I had read state knife laws, and that it appeared that as long as I carry openly, that fixed blades of 'hunting knife' length is legal, even in town out of hunting season. But, I said, I'm not a lawyer and the laws are written funny sometimes.

    "Tha't's correct," he said without hesitation. "As long as it's not concealed, but openly visible on your belt or pack, it's totally fine. Technically, if it's in your pack, it's illegal, but no one would give you any trouble about it around here." (He said the latter with a Mainer accent and wink.)

    "Do you have it with you?" he asked?

    I turned so that he could see it at 3 o'clock, prominently visible but the outline partially obscured - but not at all concealed - by my large fanny pack waist belt riding under the knife handle.

    "Oh, sure, no problem at all. Nice knife, too."

    I thanked him for his time, and we bid each other a good day with smiles.

    I feel more at ease now. I think the E3 may become my EDC locally unless I'm going to a nice restaurant or business meeting; then, maybe the Izula since it's a bit less imposing.
     
  13. conw

    conw Member

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    I would be careful doing things like that. It doesn't pay to get cute in that type of situation based on the fact that some bad things "can" happen (even though they didn't and usually don't). Also, police aren't lawyers, so you may want to feed the same question back to the local DA's office.
     
  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm sure Nem has read that in one form or the other more than once here.
    ***
    Nem,

    What if the nice officer had ended the conversation with, "You have the right..."?
     
  15. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Sorry guys. I see no logic in your warnings.

    I wasn't being "cute" in the least; neither was he. Courteous and kind? Sure. But no cute.

    An officer in this city - where I often see 'hunting knives' carried openly (this is Maine, not Mass) - knows his knife laws as well as the DA.

    I'm just not concerned. Do as you wish.
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    What do you base that opinion on?
    Remember that there are levels of expertise for sound reasons and the officer has a practical, but limited knowledge of the law compared to the attorney who spent a lot more time studying it before spending years interpreting and applying it.
     
  17. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Dangling preposition, Mr. Hso.

    Upon what do I base that opinion?

    1) The fact that he was clearly an experienced officer, not a rookie, speaking within earshot and vision of his duty officer - oh, did I leave that part of the story out? sorry, it's this splint.

    2) The fact that if he arrests some one for carrying a legal blade in a hunting, trapping, and fishing state, where the law clearly states that such blades are legal to carry openly, then he's gonna get in trouble.

    3) The fact - stated earlier - that I often see people here carrying camp, hunting knives bigger than what I carry.

    4) The fact that open handgun carry is legal in this state.

    There may be other factors, but it's Friday night, and i'm at home enjoying it.

    I take full responsibility for my actions. I have been duly forewarned.

    Thanks.
     
  18. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Revisiting this discussion today to address your other point, Hso.

    First, I'll say that I respect your and Conwict's knowledge about this and other issues. I generally get good, sound advice from both of you.

    When getting advice from people, I always - well, at least since my 30's - listen to it, weigh it, reflect on it, ask for clarifications if needed, then use both logic and intuition to make my decision. (I'm both a student and teacher of critical thinking skills, so I'm pretty good at doing that.)

    But I gotta say that in this case, under my circumstances, I'm not buying your argument. In some cases, in different states, for sure, yes. But here, no.

    I'm well aware that a DA may well - neigh, undoubtedly does - understand the subtle nuances of a law - knife or other - better than a police officer, even an experienced one. There are potentially little ... loop holes, or bight holes, or knots in the law that a cop may nor understand but that a DA could use to bring charges if s/he wished. Granted.

    But even so, even if I'd gotten an opinion from a DA first, I'd still want to get an opinion from the officer on the ground so that I can see - experience - his response, his words, his body language.

    If the officer I spoke with yesterday had frowned and said, "Well, that's kind of borderline in terms of length, and some officers may stop you for it", then it'd be different. He didn't. His opinion was instant, unhesitating, and unequivocal. He spoke with authority and confident conviction, again with his duty officer within earshot. (I had been waiting for ten minutes to speak with the duty officer who had been engaged in another conversation, when the other officer walked up.)

    And that means a lot in this state, home of Stephen King (I now understand where he gets ideas for some of his characters and story lines after living here for two years). In this city, we have a mix of 'yahoo' meets inner city Boston; it's a volatile mix. The cops here have to be sharp to deal with it. Every one I've spoken to or heard speaking demonstrates good intelligence.

    Importantly, given the number of fixed blades that I've seen carried openly in those two years, especially during hunting season, in several communities (including the pit that is the second largest city in ME), the cops have to know the knife laws well. There's just no way around it.

    Also, I'm not convinced that a DA would offer a different answer than an officer in response to a person that s/he doesn't know with no lawyer credentials, even if they know of a potential loophole. And since a DA is a lawyer, then they could write a response worded in a way that doesn't cover the loop hole and you're still screwed.

    (Q: How do you know when a lawyer is lying? A: He's got his mouth open. Point of story: I don't trust lawyers any more than I trust cops, and in general, less, especially if they are elected or appointed public officials.)

    Still, I'll play. I'm going to do a little experiment.

    I'll contact the DA, and ask his/her* opinion. (*I have no clue.)

    Second, I'm going to pose the question about officer knowledgeability of knife laws to a local police officer that I don't know directly, but know of through a friend who has a similar interest in knives (not on this forum). In fact, I think I may have a link to more officers (including a statie) via friends and acquaintances. I'm curious to know what they say. I'm going to describe my experience and this conversation (sans any reference whatsoever to names; I'm not even going to mention it's happening on an online forum, just a question that came up among friends in casual conversation).

    If I'm successful in gathering some data, I'll post it to a new thread for discussion rather than take this one further OT. (Kicking myself for even bringing this up, let alone in this thread.)

    Nem
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  19. AStone

    AStone Member

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    So, I've gone back to paracord belt carry on the Iz for now.

    I'm not finished with the g-clip - more experimentation to come, including with different screws and a Torx drive, but for now, this splint makes it too hard to try to deal with fitting screws, nuts and washers into tight spaces.

    I gotta say though, so far, I almost like the p'cord better. I can cinch it tight against my belt with a cord lock, and it's less obtrusive when I switch to neck carry around the studio. No verdict yet, just prelim report.

    Also, I'm having just the beginning of wonder about whether I might eventually trade the Iz 2 for an Iz 1. The 2 works OK, but it occurs to me that with my smaller than average hands, a 1 might fit better. I'd want to try one out first, just to see, and that may be hard here.

    We'll see.

    At least it's quit raining for a while; thought I was going to have to start an ark. (We're lucky with rain here compared to most of the west.)
     
  20. conw

    conw Member

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    I may have had a large margarita before posting that from my cell phone. It wasn't intended to sound snippy.

    However back to that topic, remember, asking police whether they give good advice would not really be a great way to gauge the quality of their advice! My point specifically had to do (as did hso's) with the issue of giving a police officer who was so inclined a reason to arrest you. A possible reason, that is. I just wouldn't ever do this regardless of why you think they wouldn't, if it's avoidable. It is not a philosophical or otherwise arguable issue, just one of risk management. You have very little to gain from being what I termed "cute" (wearing a knife to the police station to ask a question from police who may not have the correct legal answer, then revealing yourself to be in the state of doing something that does not, in your mind or even that of the police, constitute a 100% legally defensible action at that point in time) and a LOT to lose, if the wrong (sociopathic) type of LEO is around.

    YMMV, so I wanted to explain where I was coming from. I don't think either of us will learn much from an informal survey of LEOs...
     
  21. AStone

    AStone Member

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    CW, thanks for clarifying. But please trust that if I hadn't have been confident of legality already, from reading laws and threads on Maine's laws, I would not have done that.

    It's clear that the officer correctly perceived me - a 60+ nicely dressed guy, self-described to him as a field biologist (which I am), and he acknowledged that explicitly - as a citizen asking an honest question, with an intension of doing the right thing.

    Had I been in inner city Boston, I'd not have done it.

    But as I've said numerous times, this ain't BOS, or NYC, or TN ... it's Maine. Things are different here.

    As for an informal survey of LEO's, you might be surprised by whom we're querying. The sample is way more impressive than I originally thought it would be. You may not learn anything from it, but my friend and I will.
     
  22. Blade First

    Blade First Member

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    "But as I've said numerous times, this ain't BOS, or NYC, or TN ... "

    Please, don't do that...only certain sections of our state have the slightest in common with larger metro areas in the Northeast, and they aren't in this end of the state.

    Otherwise, this is a nice thread and is quite educational. I appreciate your research.

    ...the real Mr.O, from East Tenn.
     
  23. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Thanks, Blade First. I only added TN for Hso since he lives there. ;)
     
  24. DAdams

    DAdams Member

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    "Agriculture and Commerce". West TN is bit of a dead zone. Kind of like Detroit but not quite as bad. When **** gets bad, head to middle and east TN. Sanity still resides there.
     
  25. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Having grown up in Me'om-phis,
    I can attest to that.

    If I lived there now (not a chance in hell),
    I'd want an ESEE 3 and an Izula.

    And an E5, also.
     
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