Example of why I do not pocket carry

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That is a good example of why TO pocket carry. I mean really, it took +/- 3 seconds to draw, while sitting, while trying to hold a door shut. I'm honestly surprised she did it that fast, I don't think I could have, but my pocket gun is bigger than hers and she might not have had it in a holster. Looks to me like she did very good. No offence but IMO I think you need a better reason not to pocket carry.
 
Try drawing from ANY waistline concealed carry position with a big man pinning you down.
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Actually, I've done it on several occasions during FoF and AMOK classes. SOB and 4-5 o'clock will be difficult, but other positions aren't that hard.

It's a LOT easier than trying to get it out of a pocket.
 
I have long been warning folks that there are accessibility issues with pocket carry. I first noticed this back in the 1980's, with backup snubbies carried in the pocket of my uniform pants. It is quite simple; if bent at the hips or waist, access can become complicated.

Does this mean I am against pocket carry? No, I love pocket carry. I try, however, not to have my only weapon inside a pocket. One of the first things to happen during a fight, when body alarm reaction kicks in, is for one to crouch. During a fight, one may spend a lot of time bent at the waist or hips. The first instructor I met who warned about the tactical disadvantages of pocket carry was SouthNarc.

Obviously, if required to wear a tucked shirt, pocket carry may be the most expedient way carry a small handgun. I don't dispute that. Just be ready for issues during a fight.
 
Try drawing a gun from an appendix carry sitting down with your back pressed up against the door trying to hold it closed.
You've decided you don't like pocket carry, and you see what you want to see.
I see someone who decided what worked for her, and then made it work when it counted.
 
Tim,

Try drawing a gun from an appendix carry sitting down with your back pressed up against the door trying to hold it closed.
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Okay...I tried it from the same position while exerting pressure against a door. The gun came out very easily. The holster presented the grip in a consistent way, I was able to achieve a solid grip and draw.

If you insist, I can get a friend to push on a door. I suspect that the results will be the same.

You've decided you don't like pocket carry, and you see what you want to see.
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No, I see what she had to go through in order to draw.

1) Just before the draw, she was squatting near the doorknob. She could not access her weapon.

2) She turned toward the camera, put her back to the door and noticed she couldn't get the gun.

3) She sat all the way down and straightened her leg.

4) She reached into the pocket and pulled the gun. At that moment, the guy pushed open the door because there was very little force holding it shut.

5) She acquired a two handed grip and fired. Good shooting!

According to the time on the video, the time to draw was between 2 and 2.5 seconds.

How is it that I'm only "seeing what I want to see"? Please explain your post in detail so I can understand.


she did fine, there was no real other conceal carry option
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Really? You know that for a fact?

Did you know she was the owner? One would think the owner of a business has the ability to control the policy on the carrying of firearms. Perhaps I am wrong.

I find the assumptions people are making in this thread to be quite interesting.
 
Then what? He took the hit. He could have shot her (according to her he had a gun, but I didn't see it).
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Watch the video again. It was in his hand the whole time.
She did well not only in barricading the door & drawing the weapon etc. but she recognized the threat & reacted accordingly very quickly.
 
Yeah, I see he pointed what looked like a small revolver back to the right when he was in a garage. Sharp eyed woman to see that when the bad guy ran up to the store!
 
Maybe she just needs looser shorts. I tried my Speed Six--a fair chunk of iron--and it came out fine from squat, sitting, or on my back.
 
I pocket carry a snub in a Mika pocket holster. It is a compromise in some situations - but that's probably true with every method of carry.

One should practice their draw with whatever carry option they employ (with an unloaded firearm). Clothing adjustments should be made as necessary (e.g., looser pants pockets).


Here is the story for those who haven't read it - it's a good one!




ELYRIA, Ohio - Surveillance cameras were rolling as the owner of a carry-out in Elyria faced a life and death struggle, when a would-be robber tried to force his way into the store Monday morning.

The man eventually succeeded in getting through the door in the drive-thru, but the owner had a surprise for him, a gun she carries in her hip pocket.

She tells Fox 8 "I reacted as fast as I could, trying to put a barrier between him and I saw him breaking through that door and I shot him."

Once the tables have been turned on the bandit, he ran away.

The owner does not want to to be identified but says her store had been held up earlier this month, and she was acting on instinct when she fired at the suspect.

She says "it was 'you're not getting me, this ain't happening to me again, I'm not going to allow you to take this from me' and basically it was survival, I was trying not to get killed."

Customers who ask about the shattered glass in the door, are learning how the owner defended her business. The regulars are now calling her Annie "get your gun" Oakley.

A customer named Mary says "I think she should have shot him because if he got in, he could have shot and killed her so that was really self defense."

The owner says she decided to get a permit to carry the gun after the June 2008 murder of a clerk at a gas station in Elyria. In that case, the clerk was killed, even though she complied with all of the robber's demands.

As police search for the robber, the owner says she believes she has struck a blow for justice, and the right of citizens to protect themselves and their property.

She says "it's definitely empowering but at the same token, I'm just glad that I was prepared, I never wanted to be one of those owners that wasn't prepared."

And there is a message for criminals who are terrorizing carry-outs and other small businesses.

She tells Fox 8 "you don't know who you're robbing, you better beware because you don't know, we don't all come into business totally blind, we know what we're getting ourselves into and you caught the wrong person, I was prepared."

Investigators believe the man was wounded and may be seeking medical attention.

Anyone who can identify him is asked to Elyria Police.
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I'm glad that things worked out for the store owner, but that things barely worked out is evident. I certainly don't see an argument FOR pocket carry. And I often pocket carry, albeit a second gun.
 
If she had been carrying in a holster with inadequate retention she may had lost her pistol while trying to secure the door.

If I were in her circumstances, it may have taken me two seconds to find my a** with either hand.

She had the pistol in her hand the moment she needed it. She took the shot the without hesitation, hit the target and ended the threat. No misses. No shots fired by the robber.

For the bigger gun, more shots school of thought, she doesn't have to live with the lifetime memory of taking a life, however justifiable.


With all the "what ifs" flying here...

If she had the gun in her hand while trying to secure the door:
she may have lost it
The robber may have seen it & shot her first
She may have chosen to take a shot through the door, exposing herself to
possible prosecution depending upon the local castle doctrine, (but please let's not digress, shooting the perp inside the door just makes it that much more justifiable),
returning fire from the perp
or a miss endangering bystanders.
 
230therapy said:
This is not a cheerleading thread. Yes, she won...barely. That's good enough, but I don't want to be in such a position where it's so close.
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I don't think you are seeing what happened. Any type of carry option she would have had, save maybe ankle carry, would have been awkward in the position she was in. SHE DID EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING. She was so low, had the guy tried to shoot her through the door, she would have been hard to hit, hard to see.

She didn't "barely" win. She won decidedly. She got to cover. Gave herself time to access her weapon. Shot all the bullets down range. Won the engagement.

Period.

Edit:

You are focusing on how fast she got to the gun and nothing else. Look at the video again. Be the perp. Look for an opportunity to shoot her. She did exactly the right thing by getting low, gaining time to access the weapon, firing the weapon when the threat was MOST IMMINENT (avoiding prosecution) and won... Nothing else to critique.
 
I see both sides and they are each valid. She had a gun when she needed it and was able to employ it effectively. That is what is most important, next: she (and we) can observe what she did well and resolve to do/train for that and what see she could improve on (like carry methods).

Lots of people have mentioned you can't belt carry with a tucked in shirt...you can with the right holster. I have a Comp Tac "C-TAC" and "M-TAC" for my Kahr K9 and Sig P226. I have carried both (yup, the big-'ol Sig) with tucked in shirts to church standing in front of others towards the front. It works. Right now I'm using the standard clips which are easier to get on and off, "C" clips are even more concealable.

However: drawing from a tucked shirt IWB, would possibly be slower (maybe about the same or a smidge quicker-would have to test) than pocket carry, but allows for carry of med-full size guns.
 
While under that much stress, any untrained average person loses a lot of fine motor skills. Drawing a weapon becomes more difficult and requires some thought after adrenaline has kicked in. Drawing a gun perfectly is a matter of stance and muscle memory. If you can quick draw while standing up with nothing blocking your way, that's great. Now put yourself on the floor with a shirt on top of your gun and in the middle of a situation like that. I guarantee you that she had to slow down and deliberately think of every single action she was performing just to get the pistol drawn. I think anyone who has been in a situation like she was in can agree to what I have described.
 
Carry the best way you can manage

Ragnar Danneskjold said
230, do you ever have occasion where you are forced to wear a tucked in shirt with nothing over it?

It's real easy to say "don't pocket carry" when you have never had a job or had to attend an event where belt carry is just unconcealable, and OC is prohibited. Sometimes you just CAN'T carry on the belt without giving yourself away. And those times usually line up with times you don't want anyone else to know you have a gun. So what do you do? Carry in a backpack? Purse? Ankle holster? Deep concealment like SmartCarry? None of those are any easier to get at than pocket carry, and most are harder.
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I agree mostly with the above.

I also see good logic in the other side of the discussion. I don't think any nationally known firearms instructor will advocate pocket (or any other deep concealment) carry as a preferred carry method. Most of those people own their own business. If anyone owns their own business, they can carry any way they want (open carry even). The lady owns the store, so maybe some friend can educate her about an easier-to-access carry method. Some people just can't pull this off for various reasons, some of which Ragnar covered. In those cases, I don't think the answer is to just not carry at all. Each individual has to continually evaluate their situation and carry in the manner which suits their lifestyle with a view towards the method easiest to access among several.

For many people, pocket carry just fits their situation best.
 
This is a "what went wrong thread", not a "let's validate why we need to carry at all times" thread.

What went wrong is that she had to dig into her pocket to get a gun out. It took her 2-2.5 seconds and some gymnastics under pressure to do so.

***

I use the Dillon Precision Plan B. Works just fine, especially partially unzipped. I carry it in my support hand at all times.

It has the unfortunately side effect of making the carrier look like an Amway guy. I'm sufficiently comfy with my sexuality that such things do not bother me :)

***

Agreed: she probably doesn't train much.

***

Open carry may be the better answer here. Some people won't do that though.
 
230therapy, you've got a job interview at a fairly nice business. It's summer and 91 degrees outside, so you're not wearing the jacket as much as possible, and when you get to the interview, the interviewer asks you in a friendly way "It's pretty hot in here, why don't you toss that coat up on the hook and have a seat and we'll get started."

This morning you were trying to decide whether to wear your normal weapon OWB or perhaps pack one of you .380s in your pocket. Which one did you pick? And now that you are about to take your coat off and expose your waist for all the world and your future employer to see, are you happy with your choice?
 
I was on a job interview last week at a company very interested in my employment. I don't own a suit jacket, so I did not wear one. I would not wear one anyhow in the 95F weather we just had here in TX.

I have the options of carrying IWB or in the pocket. I usually carry a .38 in the pocket for my everyday chores, etc. I chose the pocket carry for the ride to the interview. I left the .38 in the car. I didn't feel at all comfortable with doing so but I didn't know what the security, if any, would be like. The last thing I needed was to go through a metal detector upon entering the building and whip out that .38 when the detector goes off. I would like to be employed and ruining my changes of it by violating company policy (most companies do not allow you to protect yourself on their property) on the INTERVIEW day was not going to work for me. Obviously I made it out alive but it really is uncomfortable not carrying a gun into a strange place.

The interview went well and yes, I did get the job. I start soon and look forward to the opportunity. No, there was no security and no one frisked me.

My point is, there are times when you really have to decide when, how and if you can carry. I wish we lived in a society where people could freely and openly carry weapons for protection but there are the few in power who think they can protect us with false promises and lies and do it by taking away our God-given rights. Until that changes, we are faced with obstacles even before we decide how to carry protection.
 
I do not carry at job interviews because I have never worked at a company that permitted it.

It is against the law in my state to carry in private property if against policy.

I know that other states have similar laws.
 
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