Example of why I do not pocket carry

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It's funny, you use an example that turned out mighty fine to argue that you would have done it differently.
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I thought that too,lol. I read the thread title and thought I would see or hear about a pocket carrier who had a terrible tradgedy (shooting themself,etc.), but what I saw was a woman who defended herself, her property, and the guy in the fetal position behind her. :rolleyes: Good for her!

Pocket carry works just fine. I carry an lcr with 38+p's in a Robert Mika pocket holster alot when it's too hot myself.

However, this is the op's thread and I will respect that. The ladies have many more options when it comes to ccw, they have purses!!! I could easily tote a full size .45 in a purse, but folks would look at me funny(er).

BUT,sometimes I carry this:

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I could fit an uzi in there if I wanted! :D

She might start carrying something bigger or in a different manner, but I'll bet she's happy with her results.
 
It's funny, you use an example that turned out mighty fine to argue that you would have done it differently.
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Again, she did things less worse than the bad guy.

Her 2 to 2.5 second draw required a bunch of physical movements to unbind the gun. It just was not easily accessible, especially under pressure.
 
230t--

The problem with your analysis is that you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight to validate (or perhaps more accurately, speculate) why your preferred mode of carry would have worked better in this particular instance. While there was a delay, she was able to incorporate physical resistance into her tactics to get to her gun in time to employ it effectively.

Appendix carry? Maybe, but maybe in all the jostling, she might have shot herself in the abdomen or thigh. Might have put one through her femoral artery (the one concern that always dissuades me from IWB north of the three o'clock position).

In truth, the best means of carry, if you look solely at the "quick draw" aspect, would always be OWB, probably carrying openly. Every method is a compromise and each of the methods of concealed carry confers benefits in some scenarios and imposes limitations in others. The key, at least in my mind, is carrying consistently and training with whatever methods of carry you choose to employ.

I carry in different ways, depending on my attire and other circumstances. In many instances, I believe pocket carry could give you a substantial advantage. What comes to mind is the fact that, if you're fortunate enough to smell trouble brewing, you can casually slide a hand into your gun pocket without brandishing your weapon, putting yourself in the position to draw and fire effectively in a fraction of a second.

I think she did well, and it's hard for me to conclude that an alternative method of carry would have worked to her benefit.
 
230t--

The problem with your analysis is that you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight to validate (or perhaps more accurately, speculate) why your preferred mode of carry would have worked better in this particular instance. While there was a delay, she was able to incorporate physical resistance into her tactics to get to her gun in time to employ it effectively.
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No, I have the benefit of a full video to take a look at what worked and what did not work.

Are you telling me that her draw will be faster than mine from a belt? There is no speculation...I *know* my draw will be faster.

She got lucky. Her position was such that the bad guy was able to get the door open enough to get in. He did have a handgun. She (unnecessarily) managed to get her second hand on the gun just before he stepped through. That's fine though since she got the shot off in time.

Appendix carry? Maybe, but maybe in all the jostling, she might have shot herself in the abdomen or thigh. Might have put one through her femoral artery (the one concern that always dissuades me from IWB north of the three o'clock position).
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Bunk!

Don't shoot yourself in the butt, leg or foot drawing strong side! Oh, wait! She could have shot her kneecap off doing that straight leg draw!

Let's continue to play the "BUT-IF" game, shall we?

In truth, the best means of carry, if you look solely at the "quick draw" aspect, would always be OWB, probably carrying openly. Every method is a compromise and each of the methods of concealed carry confers benefits in some scenarios and imposes limitations in others. The key, at least in my mind, is carrying consistently and training with whatever methods of carry you choose to employ.

I carry in different ways, depending on my attire and other circumstances. In many instances, I believe pocket carry could give you a substantial advantage. What comes to mind is the fact that, if you're fortunate enough to smell trouble brewing, you can casually slide a hand into your gun pocket without brandishing your weapon, putting yourself in the position to draw and fire effectively in a fraction of a second.
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Agreed on the hand on the gun aspect of pocket carry. That seems to be the universally agreed upon advantage.

Alternatives for "pre-draws" from the hip are available. I like covering the gun with a hat or bag.

I think she did well, and it's hard for me to conclude that an alternative method of carry would have worked to her benefit.
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Wow, just wow. 2-2.5 seconds to draw with physical problems and you think that's just fine?

The guy managed to get into the room just as she pulled her weapon. Part of the reason he was able to get through the door is because she was exerting less force on the center of the door while she moved her body into position while she could draw.

Good thing the guy didn't shoot through the door.

Yes, she won the fight. No, she didn't do it particularly well. Fortunately, she performed less worse than the felon.
 
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230,

I agree with you on this.

Realize you probably aren't going to convince those without a proper mindset of the problems inherent with pocket carry and call it a day. :cool:
 
But many of you are not seeing the problem. You're just parroting "Carry a gun! Carry a gun!"

This is not a cheerleading thread. Yes, she won...barely. That's good enough, but I don't want to be in such a position where it's so close.

***

I'm more about carrying a gun effectively. I like to think it through.

That was a 2-2.5 second draw according to the video timing. She had to do it with a guy beating down the door and from a sitting position (which is weak in terms of strength, balance and positioning). She was forced to straighten her leg in order to access her weapon. That slowed her down considerably and the bad guy did get into the room.

It seems to me that a gun that was more accessible would have given the bad guy less opportunity to get in and do harm...he was right there and was about to succeed in hitting her. She just barely beat him. A more determined man would have pressed the attack even though he was shot. (We also do not know what damage was done to the bad guy. Maybe it hit the heart...or maybe just muscle...the angle was high. My hope is the guy keeled over quickly).

Then what? He took the hit. He could have shot her (according to her he had a gun, but I didn't see it).
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what would you do in the same situation?
 
Honestly, I feel that this thread has seen its day. Nobody is stating "pocket carry is the best method of carry". If we could, we'd probably all carry one gun in a thigh holster, one in a crossdraw, and one in a shoulder holster, as none of them are "easily accessible" in all situations. However, that's just not practical.
However, for many of us (myself included), pocket carry is the only effective way to carry a gun. Few people would choose it for "tactical" reasons, and I've not seen anybody on this thread make that argument.
 
I'm not trying to be overly critical here. Obviously she did a good job, obviously things turned out the right way. Obviously it was a high stress situation. It looks to me like she had her finger on the trigger and had it pointed at the guy next to her for a moment. (After the bad guy ran away and she stood up.) Highly doubt that I'd ever be in that situation, but it's nice to look at videos and try to lock things into my brain to be aware of in bad situations.
 
However, for many of us (myself included), pocket carry is the only effective way to carry a gun. Few people would choose it for "tactical" reasons,
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Pocket carry is a method of convenience only. Stick it in your pocket and call it 'good', under the illusion that you are 'prepared'. Probably anemic and hard to get to, but at least you have a gun and aren't violating Rule #1.

Most on this board should know better.

Then again, maybe not.

If your fight is with a single inept adversary, pocket carry may be fine. Maybe not. A sudden close range affair against a determined (or multiple) adversarie(s), I doubt you will do as well as the pocket carriers like to imagine. And getting your hand trapped in a pocket is a very bad thing so you have to weigh the options.

Try your pocket carry in a structured FoF setting and see what works and what won't. Most fights are ambushes, not pre-arranged duels. In FOF you even get to know it's coming in some shape, form or manner. On the street the ambush may leave you never knowing what hit you. You can stack the deck in your favor.

From Randy Harris of S.I.
There is a reason I abandoned pocket carry for primary.

I used to carry Glock 27 in front pocket of cargo shorts (not the cargo pocket). I was pretty happy with it. But once I started investigating how difficult it would be to get the gun out of my pocket in a struggle, I saw how big a losing proposition that would be. Trying to fish your gun out of your pocket mid fight might be less than ideal.....

On the other hand, I do use the pocket to carry the BUG or "auxilliary gun". But I do not have any illusions about getting it out in a brawl. I know that if I go for the pocket pistol mid fight, I had better have the other guy all but unconscous because it will take one of my hands out of the fight for longer than I feel comfortable with.

But I CAN stand around with my hand on it and draw it unexpectedly if it is in my pocket. So it is a good news bad news kind of thing. I pretty much dumped the G26/27/33 for the full size guns when I made the decision to roll with the IWB holster and dress around it. So now that is the primary and the J frame is the pocket carried auxilliary gun.
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Gotta agree with your last two posts, smince.

***

It's been a good exercise in after-action analysis.

I'm curious to see how the owner reacts a month after all this settles down. Does she continue to carry? Does she upgrade her gun or stay with this one she has?
 
For all the criticism of pocket carry, the people stating such criticism are coming up short on alternatives. I have yet to hear a method of carry put forward that is concealed, fast, and safe in every situation, location, and manner of dress.
 
I don't think she is going to be wanting a bigger gun. Did you see the recoil on that first shot? Holy cow.

I wonder if that was due to setback of the bullet from repeated chambering of the same round causing increased pressure. I am not sure how many shots she got off but it looked to be 3 and the followup shots did not recoil anything like that. She did a great job of getting back on target.

I only pocket carry around the home when moving the gun from room to room. I know it is a disadvantage compared to my standard carry but as in the case of this video it will take an intruder some time to negotiate the doorway and that will be time enough.
 
I disagree with your premise

There are lots of good reasons for pocket carry and this looks to be one of them. Could she have carried differently, probably. Did she need to, obviously not. Look, I prefer to carry a full sized handgun like my 1911 or Glock, and usually do, but I ALWAYS have my LCP in my left front pocket. Had she been wearing a larger gun on her hip most of the day, it may have wound up under the counter or in a drawer. Because it was on her person, she was able to keep him from entering the store and, protect herself while doing so. I have to give her credit for being able to barricade the door and draw and fire from that position, regerdless of what or where she was carrying.
 
She had a gun, and she knew how to use it.

That's all that ever matters.
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Yeah, but she didn't do it like Doc Holliday would have. That is reason enough to start criticizing, even though 99.5% of us have never used a weapon in SD.:)
 
So,I have to ask at this point does anyone know if the robber died or was apprehended??
Anyone know what make or caliber of pistol she used??
As I stated in an earlier post whatever her style of carry is/was or whatever the make,model or caliber the pistol was one thing is for sure he wanted completely away from her after she shot him.
 
fireside,

I am not criticizing in any sort of negative way. I am analyzing what happened in order to learn what to do better. It's important to look at what happened (in this case, a "second by second" review) without coloring it with cliches and gun sayings. I keep seeing people saying "It went great because she had a gun" and so forth.

In my two incidents, I did a covert draw. My body language, the "stop" motion with my hand combined with a hand out of view, were sufficient to end the encounter. I wish everyone were that lucky. My training kicked in and I didn't even have to think...a good thing. I reviewed each encounter in my mind and tried to find where I could have done better. In both gun incidents, better skills at READING body language would have saved me a draw and an adrenaline dump. My perception was fine since I noticed and recognized what was going on early enough...but they were still too close for comfort!

The store owner's perception is top notch. She saw the gun very early on (before he entered the garage) and was able to prepare herself and warn others.

Although she had a "mouse gun"...it worked! As heeler said, the guy wanted only to leave after getting shot.

But the reality is she had to go through a complicated draw process that was made much more difficult by a six foot tall guy slamming his body into a door.

She *may* have been able to do better with holding the door shut. However, we do not have audio and everything was complicated by the gun carried by the goblin. We do not know if he was threatening to shoot through the door (which would explain her staying very low to the ground).

It would be very interesting to interview her after she is cleared of any wrong doing.
 
There will always be compromises... Sometimes the pocket is just the right option.

Using a handgun instead of a rifle is a compromise.
 
BBQLS1 said:
There will always be compromises... Sometimes the pocket is just the right option.

Using a handgun instead of a rifle is a compromise.
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+1

I do not know why 230therapy is focusing exclusively on draw time. It is dangerous to second guess the winner of a conflict. Had they done anything different, they might have not made it.

Had her gun been MORE easily accessible, she might not have ducked behind the door and gotten shot straight away.
 
How is post action review "dangerous"? You can play "what if" all day long. The video showed her holding the door shut while moving her body so she could draw. Your argument makes no sense since she could have been shot through the door at any time prior to getting her gun out.
 
http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-elyria-...,6139707.story

Look at the situation. She was fighting to keep the door closed while trying to draw. She had to straighten her leg, dig deep into the pocket and then get it out without snagging.

Notice her gun school correct shooting stance.
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One could dredge up a dozen "snatched gun" stories and start a thread called "Why I don't belt carry", but that would pretty illogical.

It's funny, you use an example that turned out mighty fine to argue that you would have done it differently.
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THIS.
 
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