Exchanging guns-

[Fat Boy]

As I understand the law, if I buy 2 handguns from the same licensed dealer in a 7 day period of time the dealer must file a separate report showing the 2 purchases. I read recently something that I understood to say that if I bought a handgun and within the 7 days exchanged it for another handgun with the same dealership filing this second report is not required

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding things?

 

[dogmush]

The actual law is 18 USC 923 (g)(3)(A):

(A) Each licensee shall prepare a report of multiple sales or other dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of, at one time or during any five consecutive business days, two or more pistols, or revolvers, or any combination of pistols and revolvers totalling two or more, to an unlicensed person. The report shall be prepared on a form specified by the Attorney General and forwarded to the office specified thereon and to the department of State police or State law enforcement agency of the State or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction in which the sale or other disposition took place, not later than the close of business on the day that the multiple sale or other disposition occurs.

It says "Sells or disposes of". It doesn't list an exemption for exchanging. In addition the ATF FAQ on this mentions going over 5 days worth of 4473's every day, looking for multiple sales. On top of that, the Dealer's bound book will show two pistols going out to the same person (and one coming in from).

My reading would be, since they will have two 4473's on hand for the same person inside of 5 business days, they need to file the 3310.4.

 

[Apachedriver]

IANAL. DYODD. underlining and bolding is my own.

From the ATF eRegulations website.

27 CFR § 478.126a Reporting multiple sales or other disposition of pistols and revolvers.
Each licensee shall prepare a report of multiple sales or other disposition whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of, at one time or during any five consecutive business days, two or more pistols, or revolvers, or any combination of pistols and revolvers totaling two or more, to an unlicensed person: Provided, That a report need not be made where pistols or revolvers, or any combination thereof, are returned to the same person from whom they were received. The report shall be prepared on Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers. Not later than the close of business on the day that the multiple sale or other disposition occurs, the licensee shall forward two copies of Form 3310.4 to the ATF office specified thereon and one copy to the State police or to the local law enforcement agency in which the sale or other disposition took place. Where the State or local law enforcement officials have notified the licensee that a particular official has been designated to receive Forms 3310.4, the licensee shall forward such forms to that designated official. The licensee shall retain one copy of Form 3310.4 and attach it to the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, executed upon delivery of the pistols or revolvers.

 

[Ryanxia]

I bought a pair of pistols at a gun show because of the deal I got for buying both. The guy was nice and asked me if I was aware of the reporting he had to do and I said yes. I had heard people say the ATF knocks on your dock and questions you and I was prepared to tell them to pound sand (in a fairly polite way). Never got a call or a knock.

I don't worry about it anymore not that I can remember the last time I did it. But they are only going to give you grief if it's been like a few weeks since you bought them and then turned around and sold them. (Still perfectly legal but they'll hate it lol).

 

[old lady new shooter]

I was actually wondering about this myself, I was thinking of buying a second revolver and found out that Martin Rettig (very well known longstanding gun store, not near me but drivable) not only gives a year guarantee with the used guns they sell but also lets you return one within three days no questions asked... so I was thinking I wouldn't mind buying a used one from them and saving half the purchase price... but I was wondering whether if I didn't like shooting it and returned it within the three days if I would have to wait another 30 days to get a different one and/or have another 10-day waiting period.

 

[Twiki357]

Old lady new shooter; Sorry to hear that you’re in one of those states.

As for the multiple sales reported to the ATF, I’ve purchased more than one handgun at a time from sellers at gun shows a number of times and once from my local pawn shop. Never had a visit from the ATF or any law enforcement agency.

I always wonder about that [same day] reporting requirement. I bet those gun show sellers really fill out that report and head for the nearest mailbox on their way out of the show.

 

[Colonel]

But they are only going to give you grief if it's been like a few weeks since you bought them and then turned around and sold them. (Still perfectly legal but they'll hate it lol).

Is it still "perfectly legal"?

Serious question.

 

[Ryanxia]

Colonel, yes, there is no law that says you can't sell your guns as long as you do so in a legal manner. If you are doing it for a profit and livelihood then you need an FFL license, but if you don't like the gun, want to upgrade your collection or whatever else, you are within your Rights to get rid of it. It's just that the ATF are always on the lookout for people selling guns for a profit and livelihood without a license and in their eyes, not keeping a gun for very long is a red flag that you could potentially be one of those people.
Edit: And if you're referring to Obummer's executive actions/orders a couple weeks ago, it changed nothing. There are plenty of threads already on that.

Twiki357 - I don't think many dealers mess around and skip the filing, I just think it depends on your area and workload of your local ATF field office as far as if they have time to give you a knock or a call. Just my opinion though.

 

[danez71]

I was actually wondering about this myself, I was thinking of buying a second revolver and found out that Martin Rettig (very well known longstanding gun store, not near me but drivable) not only gives a year guarantee with the used guns they sell but also lets you return one within three days no questions asked... so I was thinking I wouldn't mind buying a used one from them and saving half the purchase price... but I was wondering whether if I didn't like shooting it and returned it within the three days if I would have to wait another 30 days to get a different one and/or have another 10-day waiting period.

In CA, I believe all of the waiting periods start over.

Hopefully the CA appeals court rules in favor of the original ruling that a 10 wait is unfair if you already have passed the CA requirements before or have a CA CCP.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I was told there would be no sales reporting when I bought a revolver and a .410 shotgun in one visit to the local gunshop. Two handguns, yes, because that was a pattern that met the profile of buying-to-resale engaging-in-business-without-license. My son bought two identical Yugo M70AB2 semi-auto miitary rifles, one for himself, one as a father's day gift to me, from a different store and was told the dealer would have to report the sale especially if he showed up again that month. We are on the TN/VA border and the two states and the feds both have programs dealing with illegal interstate trafficking so YMMV.

The federal law is 18 USC 923 (g)(3)(A); the ATF regulations implimenting the federal law are 27 CFR § 478.126a but in a time or place with an illegal trafficking problem, local requirements may be more than federal law, especially if the state has its own regulations for firearms dealers in addition to federal law. CA, AZ, NM and TX on the Mexican border are exceptional conditions.

"I had heard people say the ATF knocks on your door and questions you ..."

According to the DoJ OIG Report on Operation Fast and Furious, it is standard operating procedure (suspended in Tucson and Phoenix during OFF to allow guns across the border) that, if a dealer alerts ATF to a buyer who matches straw purchaser or buyer for resale as an unlicensed dealer or any other trafficking profile, ATF may elect to follow the purchaser and if the purchaser drops the gun off at an address other than the one on the 4473, they may elect to do a "knock and talk". They may even do a traffic stop and seizure based on "reasonable suspicion".

A Review of ATF’s Operation Fast and Furious and Related Matters DoJ OIG Sep 2012, p. 37:
A “knock and talk” occurs where an agent has reasonable suspicion to believe an individual is a straw purchaser engaged in firearms trafficking and approaches the individual to ask about the firearms that were purchased.

It really takes a lot of shady and suspicious activity to show up and stay on state or federal radar as a straw buyer or unlicensed dealer. Someone honestly matching the profile of hunter, target shooter, gun collector will fall off the screen even though they may get a blip for something like buying two guns of same type, same week.

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[Caveat: Legal advice on the interweb is worth every penny you pay for it. My not so humble opinion is presented solely for its entertainment value, if any.]

 

[dogtown tom]

Fat Boy As I understand the law, if I buy 2 handguns from the same licensed dealer in a 7 day period of time the dealer must file a separate report showing the 2 purchases.

It's five business days, not seven days. And those are five days the dealer is open for business. If the dealer is only open weekends........you're looking at a significant period of time.

I read recently something that I understood to say that if I bought a handgun and within the 7 days exchanged it for another handgun with the same dealership filing this second report is not required

The dealer would file a multiple sale report because you acquired two handguns within five business days from the same dealer.

Carl N. Brown .... My son bought two identical Yugo M70AB2 semi-auto miitary rifles, one for himself, one as a father's day gift to me, from a different store and was told the dealer would have to report the sale especially if he showed up again that month. We are on the TN/VA border and the two states and the feds both have programs dealing with illegal interstate trafficking so YMMV.

No Federal law or ATF regulation requires such reporting unless the dealer is located in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California.

Twiki357 .....As for the multiple sales reported to the ATF, I’ve purchased more than one handgun at a time from sellers at gun shows a number of times and once from my local pawn shop. Never had a visit from the ATF or any law enforcement agency.

I do three multiple sale of handgun forms a week. The only customers that have reported contact from ATF were the guy who picked up ten handguns (he had been out of the country for two months, but still bought guns on the internet) and the guy who bought four AK's at once. ATF simply left a business card and when my customer returned the call was asked if they were reselling firearms.

I have yet to have anyone report a visit from ATF when receiving less than four handguns.

I always wonder about that [same day] reporting requirement. I bet those gun show sellers really fill out that report and head for the nearest mailbox on their way out of the show.

I do....but I fax it when I get home

 

[Apachedriver]

I read recently something that I understood to say that if I bought a handgun and within the 7 days exchanged it for another handgun with the same dealership filing this second report is not required

The dealer would file a multiple sale report because you acquired two handguns within five business days from the same dealer.

In post #3 (my post), what type of transaction is the CFR relating to? Your explanation sounds as though the OP's exchange isn't what it's referring to in it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Apachedriver In post #3 (my post), what type of transaction is the CFR relating to?

Any and all handgun transactions.

"...Provided, That a report need not be made where pistols or revolvers, or any combination thereof, are returned to the same person from whom they were received...."

This means when you take a firearm(s) to a licensee for repair or cleaning.....no multiple sale form is required. (because they are being returned to the same person)

Your explanation sounds as though the OP's exchange isn't what it's referring to in it.

The dealer isn't returning anything to the OP.

 

[Jim K]

The multiple sale reports are filed by the dealer with BATFE. I frankly doubt they ever look at them unless there is a "red flag" of some kind and usually the buyer doesn't even know about it unless the dealer tells him. I know I triggered a report several times, and never heard from anyone about it. No midnight visits from the feds, no breaking down doors, no third degree in the basement of the federal building. Nothing.

Jim

 

[pittpa]

My LGS asked me to wait a week and come back for a second transaction to save them paperwork.

 

[Apachedriver]

@dogtown tom

Ahh, ok thanks. I read it out of complete context. I took it to mean returning a firearm to the selling licensee instead. Thanks for the clarification.