Expanded Hollowpoint Pictures

[ray15]

I've been watching too much Paul Harrell, which has resulted in a trip to the local WallyWorld and a purchase of my own high-tech fleece bullet stop. I've been giving it a workout. Methodology (such as it is) is to place a water jug in front of a box full of fleece and shoot. The 40 and 357 Sig stuff was fired from a 4" XD Mod.2, the 357 magnum a 6" GP100, and the 45ACP was a Commander-size RIA 1911.

Be advised I know there is nothing scientific about this. This 'testing' is very loosely controlled, and is just for fun. But it does indicate the degree and control of expansion along with jacket and overall weight retention. The water bottles shot were 3-4" thick, but nonetheless produced essentially complete expansion. This size bottle also slows the slugs to the point they are easily captured in the fleece (even the 357 mag loads were captured on the first attempt). Direct shots from all calibers zip right through the fleece.

 

[ray15]

Starting with 357 Magnum, 125 and 158gr. XTPs were tested.

125gr. Hornady XTP HP
velocity: 1717fps.
retained weight: 101.2gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.525"

158gr. Hornady XTP HP
velocity: 1394fps.
retained weight: 139.7gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.525"


One of the better 'old-school' jacketed hollowpoints, the XTP HP retains weight by limiting expansion via a harder core and thicker jacket than most. This is still a workable (or should I say marketable) compromise for a hunting bullet because allowing greater expansion in this application would reduce penetration. Recall that Hornday was forced to replace the XTP in newer defensive products like the Critical Defense and Critical duty to get a better combination of expansion and weight retention. Their previous 'TAC-FPD' defensive line used XTPs.

 

[ray15]

Moving on to 357 Sig, we have the RMR 124gr. 'MPR' convential hollowpoint as well as two variants of the famed Gold Dot and the factory 125HST loading.

124gr. RMR MPR HP
velocity: 1404fps.
retained weight: 89.3gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.475"



This high-quality conventional JHP is clearly overwhelmed by the 1400fps velocities 357 Sig produces. The jacket was gone entirely, expansion was low and weight retention limited. To be fair this projectile is advertised to target 1100fps for expansion, so 1400fps is bound to venture into the explosive. That said, it is sold for use in 357Sig and a cannelure might improve performance significantly in this application.

 

[ray15]

125gr. Gold Dots in 357 Sig have been sold in 5 and 6-petal versions. I shot some factory Speer loads with the 6-petal version alongside some handloaded 5-petal ones I bought from RMR as pulls.

125gr. Speer LE Gold Dot 53972
velocity: 1360fps.
retained weight: 117.0gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.530"

125gr. Speer Gold Dot 5-petal
velocity: 1375fps.
retained weight: 123.4gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.525"



As you can see the 5-petal version on the right limits expansion (and produces greater penetration). The petals of the 6-petal version are bent all the way behind the base to where they touch, and the expanded diameter is slightly larger. The thicker petals of the 5-petal version don't bend as readily. Both are doing a good job coping with this velocity but the 5-petal is my choice due to better weight retention. It makes me want to get some Gold Dots for the 357 Mag.

 

[ray15]

125gr. Federal LE HST P357SHST1
velocity: 1374fps.
retained weight: 118.2gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.575"



Beautifully controlled expansion, but the non-bonded jacketed design is being stretched to its limits by the high velocity. Jacket retention is solid but we lost some 7 grains of core.

 

[ray15]

Moving to 40S&W, I tried the Zero 180gr. JHP, Factory 180HST, Factory Winchester 165gr. Ranger Bonded Q4384 and handloaded 155 Gold Dots.

180gr. Zero JHP
velocity: 1140fps.
retained weight: 126.7, 150.8.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.525", 0.575"



The Zero JHPs are convetional JHPs with no cannelure. When pushed hard (1140fps) we see the same complete jacket loss as the MPR and only fair weight retention. Even so, with explosive expansion and at least 126gr. of core left over, these have devastating terminal effect even if rather out-of-control at these velocities.

 

[ray15]

180gr. Federal LE HST P40HST1
velocity: 989fps.
retained weight: 180.3, 180.4 gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.700"



165gr. Wichester LE Ranger Bonded Q4384
velocity: 990fps.
retained weight: 166.0, 166.1gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.625"



These are both well-engineered and effective factory loads. Decisive and controlled expansion with complete jacket and weight retention. The HST is not bonded where the Winchester is, but these results show either is completely workable at ~1000fps.

 

[ray15]

Speer 155gr. Gold Dot HP
velocity: 1195fps.
retained weight: 154.3
approximate expanded diameter: 0.625"



Typical Gold Dot excellence. Pushed to 1200fps this bullet expands dramatically under complete control. Terminal effect of this round is awesome. I'm using BE86 here, and have a Longshot load that does 1300fps with this bullet. Given how well its doing at 1200 I'm inclined to push it harder.

 

[ray15]

A friend of mine has a 45ACP that I tested also.

230gr. Speer LE Gold Dot 53966
velocity: 774fps.
retained weight: 229.2gr.
approximate expanded diameter: 0.625"



This is a commander-size gun, so velocity is in short supply. Nonetheless, the Gold Dot provided decisive expansion, but penetration was limited compared to the other loads tested.

 

[ray15]

Here are the load data for the handloads. These are max loads that were worked up from safe starting charges. Do not start here.

.357 Magnum (6" GP100)
Hornady 125gr. XTP-HP
22.0gr. W296
Starline brass
CCI 550
OAL: 1.580"
Number of Shots 5
Extreme Spread 63
Average 1717
Standard Deviation 24

Hornady 158gr. XTP-HP
16.7gr. W296
Starline brass
CCI 550
OAL: 1.590"
Number of Shots 5
Extreme Spread 41
Average 1372
Standard Deviation 14

357 Sig (4" XD Mod.2)
Speer 125gr. 5-petal GDHP pull
8.3gr. BE86
FC Brass
CCI500
OAL 1.135"
Number of Shots 9
Extreme Spread 28
Average 1375
Standard Deviation 10

RMR 124gr. MPR HP
8.9gr. Longshot
SB Brass
CCI500
OAL 1.135"
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 74
Average 1401
Standard Deviation 21

40 S&W (4" XD Mod.2)
Zero 180gr. JHP
7.6gr. Longshot
Win NT Brass
CCI500
OAL 1.125"
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 45
Average 1140
Standard Deviation 18

Speer 155gr. GDHP
7.7gr. BE86
Federal Brass
CCI500
OAL 1.125"
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 40
Average 1195
Standard Deviation 13

 

[Bfh_auto]

Looks like you had a lot of fun.

 

[nettlle]

Excellent! A lot of work and excellent photos. More pics of the 124 gr 9mm RMR MPR's? As if you haven't done enough already.

 

[MihiT]

I wish bullets were as cheap here, just so I could randomly test stuff.
Good work man, nothing like data to make informed decisions.

 

[ray15]

Excellent! A lot of work and excellent photos. More pics of the 124 gr 9mm RMR MPR's? As if you haven't done enough already.

I still need to shoot stuff in 9mm luger, but here are some random MPRs I recovered from the ground behind my chrono target. These may have gone through various backstops at unknown velocities but primarily expanded in the ground. They aren't comparable to the other shots I've posted here. The next time I have a chance I'll shoot the MPR at 9mm velocities along with factory 115gr. Gold Dots and factory Federal LE 124gr. Tactical Bonded into the fleece to get more representative examples.

 

[ray15]

I wish bullets were as cheap here, just so I could randomly test stuff.
Good work man, nothing like data to make informed decisions.

The individual projectiles shown here cost but pennies apiece, but the factory ammo comes a little more dear. And although a lot of things were tried, the test isn't quite random. The point was to find out where inexpensive reloader-grade JHPs run into problems with respect to velocity, and to what degree the better modern alternatives like Ranger Bonded, Gold Dot or HST improve upon the situation.

The other thing to consider is in the case of the RMR 124MPR, inexpensive is a big factor. The RMR owner Jake has a coupon code for THR members for 10% off the already attractive MPR prices, meaning this is an 8 cent bullet bought in bulk with the discount. Right now the cheapest plated or jacketed 9mm bullets I can source barely dip below 7 cents apiece - so this is a hollowpoint truly cheap enough to use for practice. I paid Jake around 13 cents/apiece for the Gold Dot pulls, the Zero 40-180JHP bought new is about the same, and I paid Jake 15 cents/per for the new 40-155 Gold Dots (killer deal there). And I'm probably going to buy some 40 HST pulls from him for 13 cents/per.

So even in the scope of this cheap test, the RMR is in another league regarding affordability. And they are a precise and accurate bullet, with the hollowpoint design encapsulating the base for reduced lead exposure even if one doesn't care about expansion. I just wish Jake had a cannelure machine. I think the addition of a HST-style cannelure at the appropriate place on the barrel could improve both expansion and jacket retention characteristics, expanding the velocity range over which controlled expansion could take place and the overall weight retention at a given velocity.

 

[ray15]

Looks like you had a lot of fun.

I shoot a lot over the chrono on a friend's property, with the bullets cutting long trenches just a few degrees into the ground's surface. When it rains the bullets are so close to the surface some just pop out on their own. Looking at the recovered bullets gave me the idea to catch them in a controlled fashion as to remove the damage factor even soft ground was producing. I shoot a lot anyways - it's a short leap to recovering some bullets.

I deal with a place called Recoil Gunworks that sells police trade-in guns, accessories and even ammo. I got the factory 40 and 357 Sig HST, some trick 9mm Federal LE Tactical Bonded, and a box of 45ACP 230 Gold Dots as trade-in ammo a few weeks ago just to get capture the bullets and compare them to the conventional reloader JHPs, XTPs and Gold Dots I was already loading. I had bought the Ranger Bonded from them cheap as a contract over-run a year ago or more when I got into 40.

Re-reading the thread I did not discuss the physical construction of the Gold Dots. It's no secret, but these use an advanced plating process to create their 'jacket'. Where the reloader-grade plated bullets I've used vary in plating thickness from 0.004"-0.008" Gold Dots have a plating some 0.018-0.020" thick. The degree to which the plating is bonded to the core by the plating process eliminates jacket separation. The overall sophistication of the design and the quality of its execution are what elevates their performance beyond all other plated bullets and into parity with the best JHPs of any construction.

The truly jacketed Federal HST and Hornady XTP HP have cannelures that help mechanically bond the jacket to the core. In the case of the revolver XTPs the cannelure is placed at the case mouth, but the HSTs place the it well inside the case, meaning it has no implication towards case crimping. It's there just to keep the jacket on the core, and it appears such could be done with the RMR MPR or Zero JHP designs with possible jacket retention benefits.

The fun is in the insight into hollowpoint construction and performance gained. My back is regretting the endeavor. And I've got enough killer hollowpoints for the next 4 zombie apocalypses, give or take a few thousand animated corpses.

 

[vaalpens]

I've been watching too much Paul Harrell, which has resulted in a trip to the local WallyWorld and a purchase of my own high-tech fleece bullet stop. I've been giving it a workout. Methodology (such as it is) is to place a water jug in front of a box full of fleece and shoot. The 40 and 357 Sig stuff was fired from a 4" XD Mod.2, the 357 magnum a 6" GP100, and the 45ACP was a Commander-size RIA 1911.

Be advised I know there is nothing scientific about this. This 'testing' is very loosely controlled, and is just for fun. But it does indicate the degree and control of expansion along with jacket and overall weight retention. The water bottles shot were 3-4" thick, but nonetheless produced essentially complete expansion. This size bottle also slows the slugs to the point they are easily captured in the fleece (even the 357 mag loads were captured on the first attempt). Direct shots from all calibers zip right through the fleece.

I also enjoy watching Paul Harrell and thought about setting up one of his targets with the lungs, ribs etc. Never got around doing it. How did you set up the water bottle with fleece backstop. I'll be interested to test it out since just using 1 gal water jugs makes it sometimes difficult to recover the bullet, especially if it goes sideways.

This high-quality conventional JHP is clearly overwhelmed by the 1400fps velocities 357 Sig produces. The jacket was gone entirely, expansion was low and weight retention limited. To be fair this projectile is advertised to target 1100fps for expansion, so 1400fps is bound to venture into the explosive. That said, it is sold for use in 357Sig and a cannelure might improve performance significantly in this application.

I think you are correct. I tested the original RMR in-house JHP and also founds that it did not hold up. I tested just in 1 gallon water jugs, and it obviously did a number on it. The bullet lost it's jacket and the retained weight was 92.5gr. Test velocity was 1259fps average. I do enjoy shooting these RMR's since they put a show on when hitting 1gal jugs at 357sig velocities.

I also tested the V-Crown bullet from Sierra for 357sig. I tested it with 7.8gr of BE86, at 1288 fps. The diameter was .7020" and recovered bullet weight was 123.2gr. I normally load at 7.8" since the expansion is good and the grouping was reasonable at .9" at 15 yards.

 

[lordpaxman]

180gr. Federal LE HST P40HST1
velocity: 989fps.
retained weight: 180.3, 180.4 gr.

I hate that water weight gain...
Thanks for posting all this, it makes me want to do some experimenting! I recall many moon ago using “phone books”, the real paper kind, for those of you who’ve never seen one, they used to be inches thick and we’d stack 6 or 7 up and see what would penetrate where. I like the water jug idea a lot better.

 

[ray15]

I hate that water weight gain...
Thanks for posting all this, it makes me want to do some experimenting! I recall many moon ago using “phone books”, the real paper kind, for those of you who’ve never seen one, they used to be inches thick and we’d stack 6 or 7 up and see what would penetrate where. I like the water jug idea a lot better.

I'd say phone books are a lot better for testing penetration. I was trying to see what the expansion behavior is like and at what velocity a given design loses control and fragments. I was only shooting through a few inches of water, with the challenge being to stop the bullet after that first jug rather than having to use a line of multiple jugs for each round. I used all the jugs I had as it was.

 

[ray15]

I also enjoy watching Paul Harrell and thought about setting up one of his targets with the lungs, ribs etc. Never got around doing it. How did you set up the water bottle with fleece backstop. I'll be interested to test it out since just using 1 gal water jugs makes it sometimes difficult to recover the bullet, especially if it goes sideways.

I was using the jugs from 'family size' Welch's grape juice. They are about 4" across. I also used some smaller grape juice bottles as well as some half-gallon milk jugs and they worked fine too. Your 1 gallon jugs should work fine. I tried varying the distance between the jug and the box full of fleece, and everything from a few inches to a few feet worked. Maybe I got lucky.

I think you are correct. I tested the original RMR in-house JHP and also founds that it did not hold up. I tested just in 1 gallon water jugs, and it obviously did a number on it. The bullet lost it's jacket and the retained weight was 92.5gr. Test velocity was 1259fps average. I do enjoy shooting these RMR's since they put a show on when hitting 1gal jugs at 357sig velocities.

Water isn't a very good analogue for real targets one might shoot, but it's great for testing expansion capability and weight retention. Sort of a worst-case scenario for jacket retention. I had some MPRs with me that I chrono'ed at 1200fps but for some reason forgot to recover one. Gel would be a lot better medium with which to test if trying to judge the bullet, but I'm guessing jacket retention with this style of bullet is always going to be an issue without physically or electrically bonding the jacket to core in some fashion. They are still a great bullet and priced fairly.

I also tested the V-Crown bullet from Sierra for 357sig. I tested it with 7.8gr of BE86, at 1288 fps. The diameter was .7020" and recovered bullet weight was 123.2gr. I normally load at 7.8" since the expansion is good and the grouping was reasonable at .9" at 15 yards.

Yes, the V-Crown is one of the better modern JHPs. I haven't experiemented with them yet but I'd say they have a chance at suffering abuse like the Gold Dots and HSTs.