Expander Dies for Necked Brass?

[jski]

I’m reloading my first bottlenecked cartridge, 22 Hornet. I’ve noticed that bottlenecked rifle cartridge die sets come in 2s: a resizing die (sometimes 2 resizing dies, a full-length die and a neck-only die) and a seating die.

Why no expander die? I’m assuming with fully jacketed bullets, there’s no need?

 

[high country]

I don't have experience with .22 hornet specifically, but you are correct, there is no need to expand the neck like there is for straight wall pistol cartridges.

Some like the neck only die, some don't. A basic set with a full length sizing die and a seating die is what you need, and a crimp die if you plan to crimp. I don't generally crimp for bolt action loads, but I'm sure there are differing opinions on that.

You will want a basic trimmer too, brass length is more important and changes more per firing than with pistol cartridges. I just use the basic lee hand held one, but I generally only prep 25-50 pieces of brass in a sitting.

Have fun!

 

[Soonerpesek]

Isn't there an expander ball inside the size die...?

 

[redcon1]

Funny you should mention that. I just ordered a Lee universal expander die last night for bottle neck rifle cartridges. Sometimes, you do need to expand them a little bit to keep from shaving jacket off.
It was about $20 with tax

 

[jski]

There is this:

 

[Bazoo]

I use the lyman M die with 30-30 even when using jacketed bullets. It creates a little internal step that allows the bullet to set in the neck straight. I find it well worth the extra step when using flat based bullets.

Since I use an m die regardless, I removed my expander ball from my sizing die. I didn't actually remove it, but replaced it with a 270 expander so that it still held my decapping pin but didn't touch the neck.

I still have to size my cases before trimming, and since I wanted to trim before m die expanding I had to modify my trimmer pilot. I removed about .005 from its diameter by spinning it in a drill and sanding it down.

 

[AJC1]

With most of the market using boatail jacketed bullets and the expander ball installed in the sizing die, most people dont need a dedicated expander. Getting away from the common loads and you can add a dedicated expander to improve results. From cast lead to thin plated bullets a two step expander mandrel from lyman or noe will improve your loading experience. The two step mandrel makes aligning bullets for seating easy and stops finger pinching. A sleeved seating die also helps and some seating dies have windows you can just drop the bullet in. Are any of these things required, maybe not. Will they make your life at the bench easier and possibly produce better results I say yes.

 

[BJung]

I have an RCBS neck expander die and plan to turn the part so the inside neck diameter will be .001" less than my cast bullet diameter. From using a mandrel and concentricity, my experience is that case walls are not even. And so I use the expander to establish a concentric inside neck diameter and neck tension.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I’ve loaded the .22Hornet for 40+yrs.
I’ve found that using a case mouth flaring die greatly improves accuracy.
I have both the Lyman M-die and Lee Universal expander dies.

The Lyman is slightly superior but slower to adjust.

Using either will also require some degree of crimp to remove the flare. The Lee factory crimp is superior, but the standard crimp in the seating die is adequate if:
1. The cases are all trimmed to equal lengths, and;
2. Bullets have a cannelure or crimp groove.

Seating the bullets concentric with the bore is critical for best accuracy.

 

[JDinFbg]

I’m reloading my first bottlenecked cartridge, 22 Hornet. I’ve noticed that bottlenecked rifle cartridge die sets come in 2s: a resizing die (sometimes 2 resizing dies, a full-length die and a neck-only die) and a seating die. Why no expander die? I’m assuming with fully jacketed bullets, there’s no need?

I load for a 22 Hornet and several other bottle necked cartridges and have refined/altered my reloading practices over the years. Most bottle necked cartridge dies are 2-die sets where sizing, decapping, and neck expansion are done in one step with one die, and bullet seating and crimping are done in a second step with the other die. That's the simple method, but one that I have grown to dislike. My primary dislike for this method is that one has to drag the expander button out of the case where it expands the full length of the neck and often gives the impression that the case was being stretched out in the process. This over-works the neck brass more than be needed when shooting shorter, lighter weight bullets in a given caliber. There are dedicated neck expanding dies (I have an RCBS) with changeable expander plugs that can be used on any cartridge. These work by pushing the neck expander plug into the case and allow the user to only partially expand the outer portion of the neck that may be needed for a given bullet, and I have used this process for loading for my 30-30 Winchester without crimping. See the following thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/does-30-30-ammo-really-need-to-be-crimped.874233/

For my 22 Hornet, I further refined this process once I started using a Lyman universal decapping die to first decap all cartridges. This allowed me to remove the decapping pin from the sizing die stem, size-only in one step, then reinstall the expanding rod, properly adjusted, and use a spacer under the die body such that case remains clear of the die body. This allows me to expand only the portion of the neck I want by pushing the expander button into the case neck.

 

[edwardware]

A distinction: Expanding (the length of the neck) is not the same thing as Flaring (the mouth of the case). The Lee and RCBS Flare dies Flare, they do not expand. Expander balls Expand, and Lyman's M-Die Expands, and Flares if you set it to do so.

Standard bottleneck sizing dies expand, so no separate expander die is included. Straightwall sizing dies don't, so a separate combination expanding and flaring die is usual.

 

[JDinFbg]

A distinction: Expanding (the length of the neck) is not the same thing as Flaring (the mouth of the case). The Lee and RCBS Flare dies Flare, they do not expand. Expander balls Expand, and Lyman's M-Die Expands, and Flares if you set it to do so.

The RCBS expander die will also flare if you push the expander plug in far enough, otherwise is just expands. The process I noted in Post #10 using the sizing die expander button will only expand, even if pushed in the entire length of the neck.

 

[BW460]

My experience is that it depends on the type of bullet you are using. For most boattail, you don't need to flair as long as you have prepped the brass correctly. For flat based bullets, I use a Lee universal die to just kiss the mouth of the brass a couple thousandths. I have had too many crushed cases to not flair when using flat based bullets. Keep in mind that I am just kissing the mouth of the brass, not creating a huge bell.

 

[Charlie98]

I use the lyman M die with 30-30 even when using jacketed bullets. It creates a little internal step that allows the bullet to set in the neck straight. I find it well worth the extra step when using flat based bullets.

With most of the market using boatail jacketed bullets and the expander ball installed in the sizing die, most people dont need a dedicated expander. Getting away from the common loads and you can add a dedicated expander to improve results.

As was mentioned, the normal ball expander is usually enough for most jacketed bullets. For those of us who load cast rifle, a stepped expander is essential, not only to open the case mouth up for proper seating... without shaving lead... but also to open the neck up a wee bit so you don't swage the cast bullet down at seating. I have used a handgun expander die in the past to bump the rifle case mouths open... to keep from shaving copper on jacketed flat-base bullets... but a stepped die is the better solution, usually.

 

[JDinFbg]

My experience is that it depends on the type of bullet you are using. For most boattail, you don't need to flair as long as you have prepped the brass correctly. For flat based bullets, I use a Lee universal die to just kiss the mouth of the brass a couple thousandths. I have had too many crushed cases to not flair when using flat based bullets. Keep in mind that I am just kissing the mouth of the brass, not creating a huge bell.

With flat-base, jacketed bullets, I have not had any issues with crushing case mouths provided I take it slow, make sure the bullet is sitting square, and I have cleaned up the inside of the case mouth with an inside deburring tool. For cast bullets, I always flare case mouths.

 

[BJung]

I’ve loaded the .22Hornet for 40+yrs.
I’ve found that using a case mouth flaring die greatly improves accuracy.
I have both the Lyman M-die and Lee Universal expander dies.

If your case walls are all uneven and the case rests on the bottom of the chamber, how is the bullet centered in the bore? Is it because the case is sized long enough to press between the bolt face and the chamber against the shoulder?

 

[Charlie98]

How should the case be crimped? With a roll crimp that just removes the flare or a Lee Factory Crimp Die?

Personally, with flared rifle cases that have adequate neck tension, I bump the flare in with a taper crimp... not actually crimping the bullet, just easing the case mouth back in. I load cast in .308, for example, where I don't want or need a crimp

 

[BJung]

As was mentioned, the normal ball expander is usually enough for most jacketed bullets. For those of us who load cast rifle, a stepped expander is essential, not only to open the case mouth up for proper seating... without shaving lead... but also to open the neck up a wee bit so you don't swage the cast bullet down at seating. I have used a handgun expander die in the past to bump the rifle case mouths open... to keep from shaving copper on jacketed flat-base bullets... but a stepped die is the better solution, usually.

Would you think the RCBS neck expander is better? While the M-Die creates a step that holds the bullet parallel with the case, the RCBS flare come close. The advantage of the RCBS expander is that you can turn the expander down with a lathe so, let's say your barrel slugs at .313" you turn a larger expander down to .312"?

 

[high country]

We'll, I stand somewhat corrected. I was thinking in terms of flaring, not necessarily expanding the neck. As has been mentioned by others, there is an expander button that is part of most full length sizing dies. Other than that, I generally don't flare for jacketed bullets. With a good chamfer, even flat based copper coated (not jacketed) bullets haven't had issues.

That Lyman M expander die looks nice though, are you all using that to expand after using with a bushing die that doesn't have an internal expander button? Or in addition to the internal expander button?

 

[BJung]

We'll, I stand somewhat corrected. I was thinking in terms of flaring, not necessarily expanding the neck. As has been mentioned by others, there is an expander button that is part of most full length sizing dies. Other than that, I generally don't flare for jacketed bullets. With a good chamfer, even flat based copper coated (not jacketed) bullets haven't had issues.

That Lyman M expander die looks nice though, are you all using that to expand after using with a bushing die that doesn't have an internal expander button? Or in addition to the internal expander button?

I hope you don't mind me adding, chamfering the mouth of a case mouth can be helpful too. With boattail bullets, there is a chamfering tool that cut at a steeper angle.

 

[JDinFbg]

My standard practice is to always chamfer the inside of the case mouth every time I reload, even if it's only a slight touch-up. I've noted that the chamfering tool that came with my Franklin Arsenal Trim & Case Prep Center cuts at a steeper angle than my old hand-operated RCBS deburring tool. I haven't noticed that one is better than the other when it comes time to seat bullets, they are just different. Obviously, using the one on the case prep center saves a lot of hand motions.

 

[BJung]

Getting back to expanding the neck, I use Imperial die wax on the inside of the case necks.

 

[lightman]

I use a standard full length sizing die with the depriming pin and neck expander ball on all of my bottleneck brass except for the 22 Hornet. The Hornet wants to be a problem child. I guess its a combination of the thin brass and the long neck? I use an expander die like you would use before neck turning. Several companies make them and the one I use is from Sinclair.

 

[Charlie98]

Would you think the RCBS neck expander is better? While the M-Die creates a step that holds the bullet parallel with the case, the RCBS flare come close. The advantage of the RCBS expander is that you can turn the expander down with a lathe so, let's say your barrel slugs at .313" you turn a larger expander down to .312"?

The Lyman M-die, and for that matter, the Lee, has a removable expander plug... you can turn or polish down either of those. I have an RCBS expander plug... it's part of the Cowboy dies I have for the .45-70, and works very similar. You can, as I did for my .348WCF, order a custom expander plug from NOE that fits in the Lee body. If memory serves, I ordered the custom .348 plug, and a Lee universal flare die... you pull the Lee insert out, and put the NOE insert in... and away you go.

That Lyman M expander die looks nice though, are you all using that to expand after using with a bushing die that doesn't have an internal expander button? Or in addition to the internal expander button?

Theoretically, you can just size without the standard expander ball, and then M-die (et al) the case neck later... as AJC1 suggested above, but you can run into problems if you try to trim your brass before expanding the case neck, as I suggested above. Thinking about it, you probably work the brass less if you size first, then expand the neck with a separate die... but that really depends on the fired brass' dimensions.

 

[.308 Norma]

A distinction: Expanding (the length of the neck) is not the same thing as Flaring (the mouth of the case).

Exactly.