Expander Dies for Necked Brass?

[AJC1]

My standard practice is to always chamfer the inside of the case mouth every time I reload, even if it's only a slight touch-up. I've noted that the chamfering tool that came with my Franklin Arsenal Trim & Case Prep Center cuts at a steeper angle than my old hand-operated RCBS deburring tool. I haven't noticed that one is better than the other when it comes time to seat bullets, they are just different. Obviously, using the one on the case prep center saves a lot of hand motions.

That is a vld chamfer tool. It gives the case neck a steeper angle for easier seating. I dont aggressively chamfer but I do use the vld style tool.

 

[jski]

I use a standard full length sizing die with the depriming pin and neck expander ball on all of my bottleneck brass except for the 22 Hornet. The Hornet wants to be a problem child. I guess its a combination of the thin brass and the long neck? I use an expander die like you would use before neck turning. Several companies make them and the one I use is from Sinclair.

I was wondering whether the thin neck would be a problem?

 

[lightman]

Its easy to collapse, especially with a flat base bullet. And if you chamfer it too much you get a knife edge which yo don't really want.

 

[Charlie98]

Its easy to collapse, especially with a flat base bullet.

I've done that with the .30-30...

 

[GW Staar]

RCBS has a fairly new (four years old) "Tube" rifle bullet feeder that includes an "M" style expander for their seven station progressive. https://www.rcbs.com/reloading/bullet-feeder--rifle-kit-progressive-press/1929.html

The point for the expander is to allow the feeder to drop bullets (no stack needed as on M.B.F. versions) and set them solid and straight so that they don't fall over or tilt as the press rotates to the seater station. Works on any rifle bullet geometry. However, to use the expander and the feeder....you use two stations. No problem if you have 7. The big plus I notice is more accurate seating...better concentricity.

Comes in .223 and .308 calibers only. What I do is remove the expander button on my sizer....something I've done anyway, preferring bushings. Then station 2 expands including the "M" step, 3 dumps powder (not using the powder thru expander option on the Uniflow ...the "other" expanding option), 4 has a powder cop, 5 bullet feeder, 6 seater, and 7 smooths with a taper crimp.

Shown this before, but below is a quick test shot, showing how well it sticks even using no stack of bullets for weight....just using my Rock Chucker to feed a single bullet.

 

[jski]

The RCBS expander die will also flare if you push the expander plug in far enough, otherwise is just expands. The process I noted in Post #10 using the sizing die expander button will only expand, even if pushed in the entire length of the neck.

So the RCBS expander die is not intended to flare the mouth of the case?

This says it flares the case neck?

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I loaded straight wall pistol cartridges for many years and am used to having an expander die that expands and (if needed) flares the case on the “downstroke” of the press handle. When I started loading rifle cartridges a few years ago I found the usual expander-button-on-the-decapping-rod rather disconcerting, since it requires the button to be dragged out of the case on the upstroke of the handle.

I use a universal decapping die before wet tumbling my rifle cases so I just remove the rod from my sizing die. I purchased Lyman M Dies to expand the necks. When I load lead bullets I can flare with a simple adjustment. All operations happen on the downstroke.

 

[Charlie98]

RCBS obviously has a separate die... a Neck Expander Die, if I'm reading the description right... that the plug threads into. The big difference I see with that plug vs an M-type expander is it can actually flare the case mouth rather than just expand it. It would depend on your particular need.

Here is a photo of my M-die insert... The lower one is the used one... there is a burnished ring just before the shoulder, that is the seating step. It does not flare the brass, it steps it out for proper bullet seating...

 

[jmorris]

I’m reloading my first bottlenecked cartridge, 22 Hornet. I’ve noticed that bottlenecked rifle cartridge die sets come in 2s: a resizing die (sometimes 2 resizing dies, a full-length die and a neck-only die) and a seating die.

Why no expander die? I’m assuming with fully jacketed bullets, there’s no need?

Expander dies, as “pistol people” see them, are often powder through expanders. This is because a straight wall cartridge can’t be expanded as it is sized or it would seize the press. Same thing if you have the expander too high and stick a neck in the die with the expander inside.



The solution is to size/deprime straight wall rounds first, then come back and expand and charge. In bottle neck rounds the expander is down inside the case, on the decapping rod, while the neck is sized and pulled back through as the ram is lowered.

On RCBS Hornet dies the expander is the part the red arrow is pointing at.



There are a number of different designs though. These are all Lee, mandrels, expanders, except the one on the far right that only decaps.

There are also stand alone expanders, like the Sinclair but they are not something most reloaders have.

 

[someguy2800]

You generally don’t need to flare case mouths on bottleneck rifle cartridges with jacketed bullets. It is usually necessary with cast bullets to prevent the case mouth from shaving the bullets. I have a universal flaring die that I use for cast. I have come across a few cartridges that the flaring die doesn’t work on because the shoulders just crush before the case mouth flares. If I run into that I’ll anneal the case mouths and then I use an inside chamfer tool inside the case mouth in reverse. I figured out if you spin a chamfer tool backward it will flare the mouth without removing any material.

 

[jski]

I have 2 die sets for the 22 Hornet: Redding and Lee. Neither sizing die fares the case mouth any. BTW, the bullets I’m using are not boat tail.

 

[AJC1]

QUOTE="jmorris, post: 12196720, member: 20589"]

There are also stand alone expanders, like the Sinclair but they are not something most reloaders have.

View attachment 1056315[/QUOTE]
These also work well to open up crushed or bent necks to help decap before cleaning

 

[jmorris]

You generally don’t need to flare case mouths on bottleneck rifle cartridges with jacketed bullets. It is usually necessary with cast bullets to prevent the case mouth from shaving the bullets.

I have found a good chamfer works for me even with cast and coated bullets as long as I seat them straight. That does take longer than flaring the end though.

 

[Charlie98]

I’m reloading my first bottlenecked cartridge, 22 Hornet. I’ve noticed that bottlenecked rifle cartridge die sets come in 2s: a resizing die (sometimes 2 resizing dies, a full-length die and a neck-only die) and a seating die.

Why no expander die? I’m assuming with fully jacketed bullets, there’s no need?

I have 2 die sets for the 22 Hornet: Redding and Lee. Neither sizing die fares the case mouth any. BTW, the bullets I’m using are not boat tail.

Going back to your original post... if you are having difficulty seating bullets without either damaging the case or the bullet, you can flare the case mouth with a universal or caliber-specific flare die, or you can size the inside of the case neck with one of the mandrel-type dies. It sounds like the .22 Hornet has pretty fragile case necks... I would opt for an M-die type expander over a flare die... to ease the stress on the case mouth. It looks like the RCBS system would work for you... as long as you can adjust the flare part of the mandrel out.

 

[jski]

So what is the difference between RCBS’s expander die and Lyman’s M die?

 

[AJC1]

So what is the difference between RCBS’s expander die and Lyman’s M die?

I believe the gap is closing and the latest expanders are closer to the m in a lot of respects. The noe on the other hand is more due to being able to get exact sizes that you may need vise just a caliber.

 

[Bazoo]

Older RCBS expanders were just straight with a flare at the top. They switched to an M die style whereby it has a straight section to expand, then a step that expands slightly larger than bullet diameter, and then a flare at the very top.

 

[Charlie98]

So what is the difference between RCBS’s expander die and Lyman’s M die?

Compared to your photo of the RCBS die plug, and my photos of the Lyman M-die... the differences are obvious. The RCBS in the photo appears to inside neck size with the additional ability to flare the case mouth, the M-die inside neck sizes with the additional ability to 'step' the case mouth out slightly for ease in bullet seating. It all depends on what you want.

Older RCBS expanders were just straight with a flare at the top. They switched to an M die style whereby it has a straight section to expand, then a step that expands slightly larger than bullet diameter, and then a flare at the very top.

My RCBS Cowboy die set has the M-die style plug; I don't know if it has the ability to actually flare the case mouth... I never ran it down far enough to know, but now I'm curious.

 

[GW Staar]

Compared to your photo of the RCBS die plug, and my photos of the Lyman M-die... the differences are obvious. The RCBS in the photo appears to inside neck size with the additional ability to flare the case mouth, the M-die inside neck sizes with the additional ability to 'step' the case mouth out slightly for ease in bullet seating. It all depends on what you want.



My RCBS Cowboy die set has the M-die style plug; I don't know if it has the ability to actually flare the case mouth... I never ran it down far enough to know, but now I'm curious.

I've heard rumours of the RCBS expander dies adding the "M" step too, but I've never seen one except on the expander on the rifle bullet feeder die product in the video of my last post. Anyone have a picture?

I do have a picture of RCBS's 9mm powder through expander with the 1/16" long "M" step for the Uniflow Powder measure....and obviously it can flare if you push it in enough. But I only used that tool to use the "M" shelf the red arrow points to.


I also have a picture showing the difference (the M step) between Dillon's PTX compared to Mister Bullet Feeder's replacement for it. Obviously both can flare it pushed in that far.....but with the "M" step there's no reason to go further....the bullet sticks and does so straight and true. The "M" step was truly a wonderful improvement.

If I'm not mistaken, besides Lyman's, Noe and RCBS are the only "M" shelf choices for rifle. In the video I demonstrated why it is a good thing for a progressive press.

 

[Charlie98]

Interesting...

I pulled the RCBS expander on my Cowboy (.45-70) set... it does have a slight step, and then it has an ever so slight flare... as seen where the brass burnish is. The bright ring is where the step starts, the brass coloration is where the flare starts. Obviously designed for plain base cast bullets.



Closer image of my .35REM M-die insert... the allen wrench points to the start of the step. It's hard to see unless you know what you are looking for.

 

[GW Staar]

Yes it is hard to see....especially blued ones.

This is a closeup of the .223 expander in the video above.....does not flare at all....doesn't need to, even so hard to see as this, it works perfectly.

 

[jski]

This is why I think an expander (flaring) die would be a good thing …

… for my 22 Hornet.

 

[jski]

… minus the bullets.

 

[AJC1]

View attachment 1056795
… minus the bullets.

Dam that made me cringe....

 

[jski]

Dam that made me cringe....

Exactly!