Expanding on shooting gun in your home.

[Ccctennis]

There was a thread a few weeks back where a forum member wanted to know the effects of shooting a firearm inside your home. More specifically he wanted to know about the effects of the sound level and muzzle flash. The thread had some great perspectives on why people choose certain guns in home defense. I wanted to take the conversation to a different place.

Let's assume we want try and limit issues with muzzle flash and getting disoriented due to the sound level.

Would anyone recommend or has any ever though about downloading their rounds for this scenario?
A member mentioned using a 44 special and others the 45acp.

My brain went into what if I load for either of those and use trail boss or some other powder that would limit muzzle flash and noise level. Would a heavier slower round provide enough stopping power. I know it could help in over penetration and I know in my home the longest shot would be 10 feet.

Anyone have thoughts on it? Am I crazy to even think it?

 

[wtr100]

look up auditory exclusion

that said a firearm fired inside a home w/o ear protection or a suppressor will damage your hearing.

seems to me at the point you need to make a loud noise with a firearm in your home it's the least of your worries ...

 

[Ccctennis]

I know it's not my most important concern. However what I am asking for is the difference between being able to competently stay oriented and on target. If I shoot my 44 mag full power loads versus 44 special and the differences. I think we all understand that this thread isn't about what level of hearing damage we may get. I don't care. But I do reload and i am just trying to get perspective and opinions on it. Thank you

 

[wtr100]

Lotta many folks will tell you not to use reloads in defensive ammo. Thinking an evil persecutor or is that prosecutor will come after you for loading ‘killer ammo’, not sure I buy that. In your case you loaded it less powerful not more – might make an interesting argument.

I don’t think it’s worth the effort. In IL we hunt deer with shotguns and slugs. One of my blinds is essentially a 4’ x 8’ x 5’ plywood hut. It’s set up so your muzzle is inside the hut when you shoot. I’ve shot several deer from inside there and can’t remember the noise of the shot or the recoil. It seems to me God “wired” us to not get overloaded in stressful / critical situations. Flash might be another matter - can't speak to that.

As for bad guys taking a hit from a reduced load, well smart guy once said ‘nobody likes to leak’ . It’s possible you could get one really tough hombre or methy-dude. Pays money and takes chances at the end of the day.

 

[sequins]

I'd rather a factory load of a smaller caliber because of the legal implications of reloading if you want less lightning and thunder. The advantage of the larger caliber is negated when you start downloading imo. If you're gonna load your .44 like it's a .380 why not fire a .380?

 

[Drail]

Isn't this kind of like never driving your car over 15 mph. in the belief that you won't be injured as seriously if you are in a wreck?:banghead:

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

I am not worried about the legal ramifications of reloaded ammo. I am concerned about the quality of powder that is available to reloaders. Additionally, a load has to have the proper velocity to get the best performance from a hollow point bullet. There are more factors to creating a defensive round than making a cartridge go bang. We are talking about a lot of time and resources to develop a defensive load. If you want to save a lot of money just buy a box of quality defensive ammo.

In a self defense situation your adrenaline is going to be at a high level. Adrenaline shuts down your hearing. I have never been blinded by a muzzle flash produced by any kind of gun from military hardware to shotguns and hunting rifles. If you are shooting a gun you cannot see the muzzles flash. On New Years Eve at midnight I emptied my 357 magnum SP101 loaded with Fiocchi 158gr HP ammo into a pile of dirt in an unlit area. I didn't even notice the flash coming out of the cylinder gap. I was not excited, no adrenaline affected my vision. I had one glass of champagne, not enough alcohol to effect the vision of a 250lb man.

Here is information regarding afrenaline protecting your hearing. Hearing loss is accumulative. You do more damage to your hearing with an MP3 player than a once in a lifetime event, defending your life or property.
http://www.healthyhearing.com/conte...rotection/47463-Hearing-loss-protection-fight

 

[SDGlock23]

For me it's not so much shooting reduced loads as it is refraining from using supersonic loads since usually the faster stuff simply has more powder in it, and more recoil which may not be a big issue, but if drowsy could be. They're all going to be loud, but some less than others which is why I think running subsonic loads (147gr 9mm, 180gr .40, 230gr .45, etc) makes more sense from a noise and recoil level.

 

[HankB]

Longer barrel and less powder would reduce muzzle blast.

"Less powder" probably means switching to a faster powder in order to get up to a high enough chamber pressure to get decent velocity out of the bullet, but with a pressure curve that would fall off faster since less powder combustion gas would be generated . . . less powder gas and less residual pressure when the bullet leaves the bore means less muzzle blast. You'd sacrifice some velocity of course, but the exact tradeoff would depend on the exact loads used.

I don't think you could come up with a load that is both good in terminal effect and actually safe for your unprotected ears, especially when fired indoors.

I've been thinking of this a bit lately, and the idea of going the NFA route for a legal suppressed HD firearm is looking more and more attractive . . .

 

[oneounceload]

Whether your brain tries to shut off the hurtful sound damage, the damage WILL occur, adrenaline, etc. notwithstanding you will suffer, most likely permanent, hearing damage.

 

[Ccctennis]

When talking about slowing the bullet down I'm not talking about powder puff cowboy stuff. But currently most defense ammo will easily go through denim and 12-18 inches of gel. Some others maybe more. Instead of those that "don't get it" let's focus on the people that choose 45acp over 357 mag. Or 44 special over 44 mag for the very reason we are discussing here. If the thread was 44 special vs 44 mag do avoid disorienting or paralysis due to the inner ear being rocked I'm sure the OP wouldn't get the type of mock or nutty analogies. I'm just trying to figure if some people feel slower heavier rounds are better for home defense due to a multitude of reasons including but not limited to muzzle flash and concussion wave and sound level. Why not at least discuss loading down a 45acp to a particular level so over penetration is less likely and you can keep more shots on target. Everytime someone starts a thread asking which caliber for s/d many people state whatever you can keep on target accurately and repedatively. Let's stay on topic and if this topic isn't for you just keep walking. Sheeeshhhhh I hate forums sometime. . J/k

 

[AlexanderA]

I once took part in a small "tactical" Civil War reenactment, which involved our unit defending an old abandoned house, at night, from an opposing raiding party. Of course, we were all using black powder weapons firing blanks.

It was quite surprising to me how LOUD cap-and-ball revolvers were, when fired within the confines of a house. It was also surprising how muzzle flashes could light up the landscape when it was pitch dark outside.

 

[moxie]

I think one is usually better off sticking with proven commercial loads in any caliber for home defense. Or, reloads that closely replicate their performance. Downloading usually reduces the terminal performance of a given bullet and handgun ammo needs all the help it can get.

I've shot a number of handgun rounds in buildings. It's annoying, and sometimes disorienting. But I haven't suffered any permanent damage from it. Even blown eardrums heal quickly. What are you going to do if the bad guy fires his gun? Same difference.

Probably the best thing you can do if concerned about your hearing is to keep a set of electronic ear muffs by your bedside. Don them at the first sign of trouble. With their amplification, you will be able to hear even better, and also protect yourself against gun noise, yours and the bad guy's.

 

[rule303]

Slight hearing damage that may or may not be noticeable is a small price to pay to be alive. Unless you are some sort of HRT operator, worrying about hearing protection in a self defense scenario borders on paranoia IMO.

 

[Kleanbore]

Lotta many folks will tell you not to use reloads in defensive ammo. Thinking an evil persecutor or is that prosecutor will come after you for loading ‘killer ammo’, not sure I buy that.

I don't really buy that concern, either.

But there is another concern. That relates to the possibility that it may behoove a defendant to have an expert introduce gunshot residue test test data to corroborate his or her account about the distance at which shots were fired, or to counter unfavorable witness testimony on that subject. If ammunition loaded by the defendant was used, it is likely, for reasons too technical to go into here, that the judge, acting under the rules of evidence, would not allow the defendant to introduce the data or associated expert testimony.

There is a sticky on that in ST&T.

On would reasonably think, however, that the risk of such a problem arising would be lower in the case of a defensive use of force inside the home than elsewhere.

 

[Ccctennis]

Once again I'm not concerned with whether or not I may get hearing loss. Does anyone read all the op statements.

 

[wtr100]

OP - What you’ve asked is a new twist on the old ‘What caliber is best?’ question. The answer that is yes, no, maybe, sometimes and it depends …

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ccctennis:

Once again I'm not concerned with whether or not I may get hearing loss. Does anyone read all the op statements.

Yep.

Those of us who have suffered permanent , noise induced hearing loss do pay attention to that risk, however.

There are well known trainers who do keep electronic herring protection devices handy, partly for that reason.

But there is a very real reason why everyone should be concerned about hearing loss. That has to do with the more severe short term hearing impairment that follows the event.

That is a lot more important than possibly "getting 'disoriented' due to the sound level".

If your hearing is impaired immediately after a defensive shooting in the home, you face three serious risks:

• that of not being able to hear the words and movement of other perps in the house before it is too late;
• that of not beng able to hear warnings from family members; and
• that of not hearing, and immediately complying with, orders from a police officer.

 

[wtr100]

Eh? What did kleanbore say?

:d

 

[wally]

that said a firearm fired inside a home w/o ear protection or a suppressor will damage your hearing.

Whether your brain tries to shut off the hurtful sound damage, the damage WILL occur, adrenaline, etc. notwithstanding you will suffer, most likely permanent, hearing damage.

This why I recommend people take their home defense gun and ammo to an indoor range and fire off a shot without ear-pro. This way you will know if its a problem or not. I've done it with my 2.5" .357 magnum, not fun but no detectable permanent damage occurred.

Shooting for defense without earpro is kind of like risking your hearing by taking Gentamyacin antibiotic -- if they prescribe it, you've bigger issues than your hearing! But a few shots won't make much difference in the lifetime noise exposures that contribute to hearing loss. I wish my eye sight had held up as well as my hearing has.

The only two people I know who have actually shot at an intruder inside their home both reported not even hearing the gunshot!

 

[oneounceload]

Once you lose it, it does not come back, and as you get older those "ear crickets" or "snare drums", or "hissing snakes" can real bothersome - I know and mine wasn't from guns but loud music with headphones on

 

[Ccctennis]

I understand that during an actual event we may not notice the sound or muzzle flash or various other side effects from firing a gun indoors. The question that I was hoping that some would take a moment and consider is is there a specific round size, speed, power level that may be the best or most efficient at allowing someone in an event stay on target and be able to process challenges during the event. Perhaps the intruder is armed? Perhaps it is an exchange of gunfire.


1. I am worried about hearing loss but that isn't the concern here
2. Yes I am most concerned with defending my family and home.
3. Yes I know downloading ammo may created other issues.


Simply. If I slowed down my 45acp 10,15,20% or perhaps I switch to another powder that is more mild. Could the round still offer stopping power and still balance the other issues in a home shooting event. Lol. Not sure why I gotta spell it out for the trolls.

 

[H&R Glock]

I shoot in the basement.

I have some of those plastic cases and plastic bullets in .38 caliber. The rounds are primer powered only and are fun to shoot into a cardboard and rag bullet trap. One can also make make wax bullets and fire them with mag primers using old brass of any caliber. Earmuffs are not needed as the report is minimal.
Wax bullets are made with melted paraffin with a few drops of motor oil added to keep it soft. Pour it into an aluminum pie pan and let solidify. Then jam the end of your primed brass into the 1/4" thick solidified wax. Much easier than pulling the handle!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ccctennis:

The question that I was hoping that some would take a moment and consider is is there a specific round size, speed, power level that may be the best or most efficient at allowing someone in an event stay on target and be able to process challenges during the event.

I don't think that will have much do do with sound pressure. Rather, recoil will likely be the issue, and that will be the same outdoors or in.

Use a heavy enough gun with a long enough barrel, stay away from hard-kicking chamberings, and see which ones allow you to achieve combat accuracy while firing at a rate of, say, four rounds per second.

Simply. If I slowed down my 45acp 10,15,20% or perhaps I switch to another powder that is more mild. Could the round still offer stopping power and still balance the other issues in a home shooting event.

Most of us do not put much stock in the concept of "stopping power" these days. Rather, what you need is penetration and the ability to hit rapidly and repeatedly.

I would advise against using anything that does not meet FBI standards.

The .45 ACP does produce less sound energy than most hot 9MMs, but it also recoils more in a firearm of the same size and weight.

.

 

[Ccctennis]

Thanks Kleanbore for your information. There is sound logic there. One of the older threads talked about getting the largest bullet moving at slow speeds as one possible angle to home defense. They discussed the 45acp, 44 mag and special, 45 colt. Ect. One person even discussed using the 45 colt in lever action short barrel as a possible weapon. The discussion was centered originally around level of hearing loss which as you can tell just by this thread detoriated rapidly I myself would always be slightly concerned about all those smaller details but want to know perhaps 45acp in milder recoil would be better than 357 magnum in critical defense loads ect.