Explain the AR to me

[Persuader12]

AR15s are probably the most popular rifle design today. I was at a shop that specializes in them a couple days ago and now I really want one, but the price is really holding me back. The difference in design over other rifles shooting the same caliber also makes me wonder if it's just an overly complicated design for what it does.

I mean, why doesn't a Mini 14 have a seperate forward assist device? If a cartridge doesn't chamber all the way, all you'd have to do is push forward on the bolt handle. But an AR has a seperate device for that, and the charging handle is seperate from the bolt, where the bolt on pretty much all other rifles is attached directly to the bolt.

It just seems that the AR has additional devices that do things that on another rifle could be done with the same device, and that's what makes it more complex, and therefore more expensive.

I think a better example is a .22 version of AR rifles. Small cartridge, so it's not the size that's raising the price. A Ruger 10/22 can be had new for a bit over $200. A Ruger .22 in AR style costs more than double. It even uses the same magazine! So why the increased cost there???

 

[two gun charlie]

I am not an expert on AR's so I won't be able to answer most of your question , I can however tell you this , if something becomes popular there is always an increase in price , demand pushes up price.
personally I prefer an AK , however there is a huge stigma attached to that rifle in this country and getting a license is IMPOSSIBLE , so the AR is a good alternative and therefore it has become popular , btw if you thinks AR's are expensive in the states , have a look at this site

http://www.guntree.co.za/index.php/latest-ads/ads/ZA/0/578-rifles-semi-automatic?limitstart=0

 

[desidog]

Theres a wealth of info on the internet; start with Wiki.

The AR using a non-reciprocating charging handle. That means the bolt can travel back and forth without the handle moving. A Mini has a charging handle that goes back and forth with the bolt, so a "forward assist" like on an AR would be duplicative.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Several things that made me like the AR (I hated them a few years ago).

Cartridges:

-5.56 is fast, powerful, accurate, great for varmint hunting, target shooting and SHTF prep.

-5.56 is a very lightweight, efficient and small cartridge (mainly a SHTF consideration), but this also means very high capacity (100 rounds) is a possibility.

-5.56 is (was) cheap to reload.

-MANY other cartridges you can fire with AR variants (can't say which require a modified lower, but most use the same lower), such as: .22 LR, 5.7x28mm, .380 acp, 9mm, .357 Sig Sauer, .40 Smith & Wesson, .44 Remington, .45 acp, .50 AE, .500 Smith & Wesson, .17 Remington, .17 Fireball, .204 Ruger, .20 Tactical, .20 Practical, .20 VarTarg, .221 Fireball, .223 Remington, 5.45x39mm, 5.56 NATO, .264 LBC-AR, 6.5 Grendel, 6x35, 6mmBR, 6x45, 6mm PPC, 6mm Whisper, 6.5 Whisper, & 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, 30 Remington AR, .30 Walker, 300 Whisper, 300 Fireball, 338 Whisper, 7mmBR, 7mm Whisper, 7mm Fireball, .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, .499 L-W, .50 Beowulf.

-AR parts are standardized and SUPER easy to replace and swap.

-Easy to make a dedicated AR for: lightweight shooter/ prep rifle/ defensive carbine, heavyweight varminter, big game hunter, hog slayer etc etc

-Fun for hobbyists, because they're easy to put together, modify and customize

-Very accurate if done right

-Easy home maintenance (again, its easy to jsut swap parts and do it yourself- a problem with any other similar rifle would probably require gunsmithing or a trip to the manufacturer)

-Great for 2nd amendment work

I could go on and on. But there are no other rifles that do what I've just mentioned.

Edit: Also, the AR is designed to keep dirt out of the working parts of the gun- an exposed bolt tend to let a lot of gunk in in a dirty environment. The AR is very sheltered.

 

[Ar180shooter]

Ar's are actually priced quite low for what you get, due to the highly competitive AR market. Many AR's cost the same or less than the Mini, are more accurate, can accept a wider variety of aftermarket accessories, can accept a wide variety of cheap and reliable third party magazines. If you look at comparable non-Ar variant MSR's, they're much more expensive for what you get. One example is the Sig 550 (Swiss made, ignoring U.S. import rules), which costs around $3000, and while it is extremely well designed and manufactured, AR's that cost half as much can keep up in terms of functionality.

As for the design, it's actually quite simple. The idea of having a separate non reciprocating charging handle and forward assist is to allow the system to be sealed off from dirt/sand, etc. via the ejection port cover. This helps increase the reliability of the system.

As for tacticool .22's being more expensive than comparable vanilla wood stocked variants, check out how much conversion stocks cost. An aluminum chassis with quad rail is expensive. A birch stock is cheap.

 

[adelbridge]

The forward assist was added as a life saving enhancement as the result of real battle testing. You can buy slick sided AR's if you dont like Forward assist look to the M&P15 Sport.
The Charging handle is not reciprocating so it wont snag on foliage, clothing or appendages, that feature really shines as rate of fire increases. AR charging handle also makes for a support track for BCG taking a lot of the wear off the internal receiver.
The min-14 is a neat little gun but its current price puts it in the same league as an AR-15 so if you want M14 technology for same price, go for it.

It just seems that the AR has additional devices that do things that on another rifle could be done with the same device, and that's what makes it more complex, and therefore more expensive.

Allot of the features on the AR are patches but a complete redesign has not been deemed necessary for 50 years. As far as adding to cost, economy of scale far outweighs the added cost of a dust cover or forward assist. You may find a slick sided AR 15 at a lower price but that is mainly for manufacturers to distinguish product lines.

 

[Ro1911]

ARs aren't expensive because they are complicated, they are expensive because of demand and marketing. The 22 ars are more expensive then a 10/22 because most of them are 22s with a whole bunch of crap modded on them or bolted on plus the marketing. The forward assist is there because the AR has a non reciprocating charging handle, all such designs would need this device, but most just don't have it.

Btw the mini 14 is just as complicated as the AR if not more so IMO.

 

[Jackal]

AR's are actually a very simple design. The AR just seems more complicated due to the fact that unlike the Mini (or M14/M1), the major systems are comprised of multiple small parts (ease of replacement) instead of large fitted/cast/welded parts. I have owned a couple Mini's (581 series and a factory target model) and I personally liked them more as a hunting rifle, whereas I prefer the AR for everything else.

 

[Persuader12]

But WHY make it with a non-recipricating charging handle, and then need a forward assist as a result? Just put a handle directly on the bolt and do away with the charging handle (which I think is rather awkwardly positioned anyway) and the forward assist. Sure, it might reduce the rate of fire a bit, but when firing semi-auto, which most of us do, then it wouldn't make any difference at all, plus it would handle more like other rifles, which would mean not having to get used to something different?

 

[jrdolall]

The AR platform offers the ultimate in modifications and accessories and is, I believe, the most popular style of rifle in the US. Ammo costs, accessorizing, cool factor all go into making this the ideal rifle for multiple uses. You can buy conversion kits that allow you to switch over to .22 LR using the same upper and lower or you can buy a dedicated upper. You can buy an AR-22, AR-15, AR10 and they all look BASICALLY the same. There are very few differences in the look and basic operations of the basic rifle. Many of the after market parts are interchangeable as well.

I have six Ruger 10/22s and decided to buy one of the conversion kits to make it look like an AR. It cost about $150 on Ebay bringing my cost for this gun to around $325 or so. Throw in a couple of 25 round mags and I have $400 in the 10-22 that looks like an AR. It still operates exactly the same as a 10-22. I also have a S&W .22 that not only looks like an AR-it operates like an AR. I have a Mossberg "Plinkster" that looks like an AR but is really just window dressing.

After you fiddle with an AR for a while you realize that they are not at all complicated. You can change out the upper or lower or drop in a conversion kit in about a minute. They look complicated but in reality they are pretty simple to operate.

 

[Jackal]

Non-recipricating charging handle's are actually an improvement over the standard design. Nothing to get snagged, ambi, etc. Basically, if you dont like the AR design, then buy an AK.

 

[M1key]

I mean, why doesn't a Mini 14 have a seperate forward assist device?

The Mini-14's charging handle IS the forward assist.

M

 

[wally]

But WHY make it with a non-recipricating charging handle, and then need a forward assist as a result?

As has been said already, the non-reciprocating charging handle makes it easer to keep FOD out of the action. The forward assist was the "solution" to an observed problem (rounds not fully entering the chamber). Its not clear in the real world if the cure is worse than the disease, or not (once you've forced it in and fired it, there is a good chance its not coming out without tools).

In civilian usage I've never ever had the need to touch the FA and if I did, unless I was pretty sure one quick last shot would be the solution, IMHO better to eject the ill feeding round and try the next one or transition to the back-up.

Uppers without the FA stack better in the safe.

 

[horsemen61]

I personally find the design to work very well for me and I like the fact that everyone from baby sister to my overgrown older brother can use it.

 

[taliv]

my guess is ARs are more expensive because

1. aluminum is more expensive than steel
2. machining (forging precision milling) is more expensive than stamping sheet metal
3. in aggregate, there may be similar quantity of total AR vs AK, but the AR parts are made by hundreds of different vendors that individually don't do enough volume to be as cheap as comparable products in other industries.


i've no desire to use a reciprocating bolt handle. i think the AR is an improvement in that regard, and the SCAR is a step backward

 

[VA27]

Bought my first one (Colt was the only ballgame in town) in '78 or thereabouts. IIRC, I paid $350; about $1250 in todays dollars. Quite a few on today's market for less than that and $1250 will get you a really nice one today.

If you look into the ejection port you'll see a scallop in the bolt carrier. If your bolt is not in battery, cup your left hand around the front of the mag well and reach in with your middle finger and pull the bolt into battery.

If you can't pull it into battery with your finger, there is something wrong. Stop what you're doing and find out what it is. Beating the bolt into battery with a forward assist will generally make things worse, not better.

The forward assist was the Army's idea. It was such a good idea that they had to devise a clearance drill for getting a stuck bolt open...you know, for when you've beat the bolt not quite into battery and you're not strong enough to get it back open with the charging handle. If you're gonna use the forward assist, carry a plastic mallet in your kit so you can pound that sucker in there good. No sense in using half measures.

 

[Quentin]

Lots of good answers already have been posted for your questions. My main point is the AR is incredible in its versatility:

Want multiple calibers (including 22LR)? ... there are hundreds of uppers available

Want a reciprocating charging handle? ... Yeah, you can find an upper with one.

Want a front piston? Instead of DI? Yeah they have that...

Now in contrast look at the competitors to the AR, say the Mini-14... is there anything as customizable at the price? The AR is a bargain. And it can be as simple or complex as you want.


The second part of your question, comparing .22LR semiautos to AR lookalikes, well that's a whole 'nother topic. They're not ARs, they just look like ARs. There are good reasons for them but all that should be another thread.

 

[IdahoSkies]

non reciprocating bolt is fully ambidextrous. That is one of the biggest benefits.

 

[denton]

There are things that I do and don't like about ARs.

Having the stock in line with the barrel helps prevent muzzle climb when shooting full auto. Oh... wait... the AR does not have full auto.

If you're going to mount a scope, it has to be fairly high so that you can operate the charging handle and avoid a strain in your neck from craning your head far over.

The whole argument that the modularity allows you to switch uppers and cheaply shoot other chamberings doesn't hold water. Most of the expense is in the upper and the optics.

It's a lot of fun to shoot, it's plenty of cartridge for anything up to and including coyotes, the recoil is mild, and most of the time reloading for it is pretty cheap. While the 30-06 gulps powder, the 5.56 just sips. So there is a lot to like. Also, you can specify a heavy target upper, or a garden variety upper to suit your needs. 2 MOA is good enough for my application, so I get by fairly cheaply.

Look at the Nikon P223 fixed 3x scope. It's all you need for a 2 MOA rifle, it's extremely bright, and it's not expensive.

 

[taliv]

Oh... wait... the AR does not have full auto.

you can certainly buy a registered AR lower that will let you have full auto with the upper of your choice. not cheap, but they are available

 

[aka108]

I don't know anything about AR. I see a lot of them at the range. Probably the most popular rifle there. Friend of mine does some work on his and the accuracy is excellent. One thing I have noticed at the range is that many AR shooters are constantly fiddling with there rifles, taking parts out and looking at them then putting everything back together again. I've never asked any what they are doing or correcting. I love the AK's. No fiddling. Just load and shoot. Have to admit that a good function AR is a whole lot more accurate than the AK's but also from what I have seen the AK is a whole lot less prone to malfunctions.

 

[jmr40]

It just seems that the AR has additional devices that do things that on another rifle could be done with the same device, and that's what makes it more complex, and therefore more expensive.

Have you actually priced comparable AR's and Mini-14's. Mid level AR's are within $100 of a Mini, but when you consider what you get for the $$$$ the AR's come out cheaper. AR's are no more complex than a Mini-14, just different.

Buy a Mini 14, add a couple of 30 round magazines, a telescoping stock, cleaning kit, Picatinney rail and flash hider and you are going to be over $1,000. About the same price as a Colt which comes with all of these features standard. And you still have a less durable, less accurate, less reliable rifle.

 

[jad0110]

Beating the bolt into battery with a forward assist will generally make things worse, not better.

Agreed. The only thing the FA offers is the ability to chamber a round more quietly (such as while hunting) than allowing the bolt to slam a round home. Other than that, they are pretty much useless and can make a minor problem much worse.

 

[Eb1]

The AR-15 to me as a kid was a joke. When we played war games and such I'd always have a M-14 or M1 rifle.
This was because of my dad's experience in Vietnam. He was also a .30 caliber guy.

Then when I was old enough to buy my own, and acutally shoot an AR-15 I really enjoyed the way it felt, and how accurate it was. Something to me about how the AR-15 sits, and my line of sight with that rifle is a great match for me. If I can see it through the peeps. I am going to hit what I am shooting at if I put the target on top of that post up front.
I think it is how close I can get to the peep sight that is good for me. Only having to focus on the front sight. Everything centers.

 

[stressed]

Everybody and their grandma has an AR - and there is a reason for it. It is a well versed weapon. I would prefer a G36C in 5.56mm, but I don't want to pay the price tag.

I have a Mini-14 and an AK in 5.56/.223, the reason for that was I like the reliability of the AK platform, and it's accurate enough for what I use it for, and if SHTF one could feed government issued ammo through it if they were able to acquire it.