Explain the AR to me

[adelbridge]

FYI you can buy a side charging ar

 

[cfullgraf]

I only had a passing interest in the AR-15 until I discovered Service Rifle Matches around 1999. The AR was the gun to shoot.

As i learned more about the accuracy and the flexibility of the firearm, I liked it even more.

I have examples from 300 BLK and M4gerys to 26" heavy barrel, "crew served varminter", 204 Ruger AR. Part of the fun when assembling a new one is deciding on what accessories to use.

 

[Torian]

No stamped actions like cheaper platforms and much tighter tolerances (more accurate). The AR is a precision weapon.

 

[Garyshome]

I want one bad but the $$$ is not here right now. I also do not need another caliber to deal with right now!

 

[Laphroaig]

To me the AR is a revolutionary firearm design, in that the bolt lugs lock directly into the barrel, thus the receiver can be made of a lightweight alloy. Direct gas impingement = few moving parts. This system allows bolt action accuracy out of a semi auto. Awesome!

As for the forward assist, I learned early on that you can bang on it until your blue in the face and it ain't gonna do anything. Fortunately my 3 AR's are so dependable that it is totally unnecessary.

God Bless Eugene Stoner!

Laphroaig

 

[fireside44]

It just seems that the AR has additional devices that do things that on another rifle could be done with the same device, and that's what makes it more complex, and therefore more expensive.

It is more refined than many of it's competitors. You pay a premium for those refinements, as you would on any other refined rifle. Too bad war isn't refined. So ultimately those refinements offer marginal improvements over "cheaper" weapons in terms of boots on the ground advantages. It's up to the consumer whether they are worth the money or not.

 

[briansmithwins]

Reciprocating charging handles (RCH)vs non-reciprocating charging handles (NRCH).

From a design standpoint there are several compromises to both.

RCH advantages:
1)Simpler to implement. Can be made unitary with the bolt carrier (AK) or a simple removable piece (Sig 550, FNC).
2)Typically stronger because they are bigger and more robustly engage the bolt carrier, if it's a separate piece of steel at all.
3)Eliminates need for separate forward assist.
4)Useful for diagnosing what's going on inside the gun. If you have stoppage where that RCH has stopped will tell you a lot about what caused it.
RCH disadvantages:
1)Snag prone. If it's big enough for the trooper to get his hands on then it's likely to catch on things.
2)Possibility of causing stoppages. Get that RCH too near cover (or your thumb) and you will make the rifle quit working.
3)Requires a slot in the action. The slot either has to extend all the way to the rear take down point (AK, FNC), be in a open action (M1 Garand and carbine, Mini-14) or the CH has to be removable (Sig 550, SCAR). The slot is a way for dirt to get into the gun. The slot can be closed by a spring loaded plate (FNC), rubber lips (Sig 550), or by the bolt carrier (SCAR).

NRCH advantages:
1)Can be made folding easily, reducing snag potential.
2)Nothing is moving outside the gun, so hitting the CH during firing isn't a problem. Operator can't get caught up in the moving CH.
3)CH can cover the required slot (Uzi, FAL).
4)CH is always in the same place for user to grab.
NRCH disadvantages:
1)More complex than RCH. Even more parts if CH incorporates FA function. (AR CH part count should really include the FA part count if you're comparing, since the AR splits those two functions).
2)Typically not as strong as a RCH. NRCHs just aren't as robustly made as the parts are smaller. You might be able to kick a FAL open a few times but don't try that on a AR.
3)Not useful for diagnostics. CH is always in the same place so you don't have a additional clue as to what type of stoppage you have.
4)Requires additional manipulation to engage FA function. Push, turn, pull, there is almost always additional activity required to get a NRCH to engage as a FA.

Personally, I own rifles with both RCH and NRCH. Either design is a compromise. What you prefer is just that, your preference.

BSW

 

[justice06rr]

But WHY make it with a non-recipricating charging handle, and then need a forward assist as a result? Just put a handle directly on the bolt and do away with the charging handle (which I think is rather awkwardly positioned anyway) and the forward assist. Sure, it might reduce the rate of fire a bit, but when firing semi-auto, which most of us do, then it wouldn't make any difference at all, plus it would handle more like other rifles, which would mean not having to get used to something different?

You may not be understanding the purpose of the non-reciprocating charging handle and a forward assist.

You really need to shoot/own an AR15 and also other rifles like AK's and Mini's to understand the difference.

First, you don't always want a reciprocating charging handle (CH). It adds weight and additional felt recoil.

Second, an attached forward assist lever/handle that you see on AK's, SKS, etc are usually not necessary once you charge the gun. I hardly use it as a forward assist (FA) on my AK or SKS. In an AR, it is a separate device that is not always used (almost never in many cases) so you don't want a reciprocating FA also. The FA is used to ensure the round goes into battery, but most of the time it will go into battery without the need to push the FA/CH.

there are plenty of other reasons that the AR is expensive. Someone mentioned demand, which is one of the key factors the drives the price. Even AK's now have skyrocketed in price due to demand.

 

[briansmithwins]

If all your shooting is sunny days at the range, you'll probably never need a FA. OTOH, not all the times you need a rifle to work are sunny days at the range.

For example:
BSW

 

[30 dirty 30's]

AR charging handle also makes for a support track for BCG taking a lot of the wear off the internal receiver.

How do you figure? The sides of the carrier key index in the track of the upper, which is spec'd at something like .402 plus a couple of thousandths minus nothing between the counterbores at front and the back of the track. Between the rear counterbore (actually a short slot, the opening that you drop the ears of the charge handle through to get them in the t-slot) and the back of the upper that is widened to something like .414 +.01 as it is broached from the rear and any mis-alignment of the broach would cause the back of the key to snag if it were the same width as the front. They key is like .398-.400 in width. The charge handle just sits above the key and the groove down the underside is there for clearance of the round portion of the key. Other than the finger at the front of the charge handle that engages the shoulder on the front of the carrier to charge the weapon, they should never make meaningful contact. I'm pulling the numbers from memory and they may not be exactly right but they should illustrate the point.

And if you mount a scope on your AR you'll probably want a larger latch on the charging handle which will then proceed to snag on everything.

 

[ID-shooting]

"FA only makes problems worse"

I have to disagree. Got a new basic (read budget AR) AR this spring. It needed a break-in as "polishing" is likely one of the areas they saved money on. I was having trouble stripping the first round out of the mags (there is a whole thread on it) and tapping the FA was allowing the bolt to overcome the "drag" and finish it's cycle.

This issue has long since resolved somewhere in ~500 rounds and the rifle feeds every time now. Moral of the story is though, the FA was very useful in use of the rifle during the break-in period.

 

[Warp]

There are things that I do and don't like about ARs.

Having the stock in line with the barrel helps prevent muzzle climb when shooting full auto. Oh... wait... the AR does not have full auto.

If you're going to mount a scope, it has to be fairly high so that you can operate the charging handle and avoid a strain in your neck from craning your head far over.

The whole argument that the modularity allows you to switch uppers and cheaply shoot other chamberings doesn't hold water. Most of the expense is in the upper and the optics.

It's a lot of fun to shoot, it's plenty of cartridge for anything up to and including coyotes, the recoil is mild, and most of the time reloading for it is pretty cheap. While the 30-06 gulps powder, the 5.56 just sips. So there is a lot to like. Also, you can specify a heavy target upper, or a garden variety upper to suit your needs. 2 MOA is good enough for my application, so I get by fairly cheaply.

Look at the Nikon P223 fixed 3x scope. It's all you need for a 2 MOA rifle, it's extremely bright, and it's not expensive.

The in line stock reducing muzzle climb is helpful in semi auto as well. Less muzzle climb is good for shooting more quickly with accuracy, whether semi or full auto.

Additionally, the optics being relatively high above the bore is in line with the the in-line stock. You don't need to put the optics down as low because your eye is higher. Most people can get a very good cheek weld with a basic stock without the need to float in space, chin weld, or build up the comb of the stock. This is a good thing.

 

[Justin]

I don't understand the obsession with the forward assist on this thread. I've been shooting AR-pattern rifles since around 1999, and in all of that time, of all of the AR-pattern guns I've shot, I've used the forward assist exactly twice, both times while shooting reloaded ammunition I bought at a gun store in the back country of Kentucky.

The proper way to deal with a stoppage is to get the round out of the gun, negating the need for a forward assist.

The forward assist is a vestigial part of the design that you will likely never actually use. Plenty of companies make flat-sided ARs without the assist, and they work just fine.

Regarding charging handles, BrianSmithWins has posted the most informative entry in this thread. I would add that his point about the charging handle not snagging on things while the gun is cycling is probably the most advantageous thing about non-reciprocating charging handles. As an RSO at a run-n-gun rifle match, I once had to stop a competitor with an M1 Garand because of the charging handle. When getting into a shooting position, he'd moved the gun forward of a vertical post that was part of the prop, and would have caused the guns charging handle to bash into the post had he fired it.

Along the same lines, a non-reciprocating charging handle makes it much easier to shoot the rifle from non-traditional shooting positions like rollover prone.

 

[taliv]

you could use it if your TTP called for a visual press check. when you pull the CH back just enough to look in the action (or feel with your finger in the dark) and verify a round is in the chamber, letting the CH go forward usually doesn't have enough spring pressure to put the bolt back in battery reliably, so a quick tap on the FA helps.

but there are better ways to do press checks.