I just wanted to keep the posters up to date and am happy to inform you that with the slight adjustment of the extractor, the gun is ejecting 3 different types of ammo - 115gm PMC , 125gm reloads and the Hornday self defense rounds successfully.
Explain this to me...
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Vern Humphrey
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And the Commander started out as the M1911 103 years ago.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What we have established is the M1911 was DESIGNED around the .45 ACP, and the 9mm Commander was an afterthought.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Why call it an afterthought? JMB was simply responding to the US Army's design competition criteria: the Army wanted a replacement handgun with a lot more omph than the .38 revolvers used by the military of the time.
The fact that John Moses Browning created the 1911 in .45 doesn't mean that the 1911 couldn't have been created in 9mm first -- if the the people who solicited the design wanted a 9mm rather than a .45. It is also quite possible that IF the people who specified a semi-auto in .45 had asked for a semi-auto in 9mm they might have gotten the same (or a very similar) design.
There are enough 1911s running in 9mm to suggest that the 1911 design isn't a one-caliber only thing -- the design runs in a number of other calibers, too, ranging from 38 Super to 10MM , and variants of the basic design can be found in .45 Super and 45 Winchester Magnum. Even the Remington 1911-22 uses some of the same basic design features and apparently functions quite well in .22.
Suggesting that the 1911 design was intended ONLY FOR (or works best in) .45 caliber is like suggesting that a V8 engine was intended only for speedboats or aircraft -- which was where V8 engines were first used (in France, I think) in the early 1900s.
Vern Humphrey
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Because that's what it was.
Let's go back to the original point -- the M1911 was specifically designed for the .45 ACP and optimized for that cartridge. That it was later offered in 9mm, .38 Super and other cartridges doesn't change that fact.
If I wanted a 9mm handgun, I'd get one designed specifically for the 9mm.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Your reasoning seems to be: "the .45 version came first, therefore the .45 is the only one that can really work as intended." You seem to feel that designs can't be tweaked, or springs changed, or slides made heavier or lighter, etc.Vern Humphrey said:
The SIG P220 (in .45) came first, but the P225 (and P6) was/were basically the same gun adjusted to use 9mm. SIG then modified that basic design to accept double-stack mags and we ended up with the P226 (in 9mm , .40, and .357 SIG), the P228 (in 9mm) and the P229 (in 9mm , .40, and .357 SIG). That's a lot of functionality based on an original .45 design.
Tanfoglio went the other direction starting with a basic 9mm (CZ-75) design and moving it up to .40. They then enlarged the frame to make room for the 38 Super, .45 and 10mm cartridge, and that larger frame is now standard. Because of that larger frame, swapping calibers can be as easy as installing a new slide assembly in the proper caliber and mags. If you have the 10mm model, you can switch to your choice of 9mm, .40, or 38 super by installing the proper conversion barrel, mag, and maybe a recoil spring. That's a lot of functionality based an original 9mm design.
STI and SVI offer a wide array of guns based on the 1911 design, in calibers including 9mm, 38 super, .40, and .45. They offer everything from single-stack to double-stack models, with steel or polymer frames, and capacities that range from 9 rounds (9mm) to 26 rounds (38 Super). STI and SVI apparently don't think .45 is the only thing the JMB design can handle well.
Vern Humphrey
Member
No, my reasoning is the M1911 was designed for the .45 ACP, and if I wanted a 8mm I would get a gun originally designed for 9mm.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Vern Humphrey said:
I understand your reasoning, but don't consider it valid. (What is different about a 1911 that was been "optimized" for .45 and one that has been "optimized" for 9mm or .40, or .38 Super?) When you say "because it was originally designed in .45" what you're saying, in effect, is that there's something magical going on there, and its not something that a good gun builder or gun designer can understand and make work in other calibers. Just because the US Army wanted a .45 doesn't mean that JMB's design couldn't be used in other calibers, like 9mm.
I cited examples of other guns that started out one caliber but have been quite successful in other calibers. In the case of the SIG P-220, which started as a .45, the later models in other calibers are arguably much more popular than the original P-220. You haven't explained why THAT type of success and adaptation isn't possible with the 1911. Is JMB's design somehow less flexible than the SIG design?
If a person likes the 1911's feel, size, and trigger, and wants something similar in 9mm -- and was (using your criteria) originally designed in 9mm -- what would YOU recommend? (Some might suggest the BHP as a possibility, but not everyone considers a tuned BHP's trigger quite as good as a tuned 1911. I have both and like both... and actually prefer my BHP, which is an older T-series, if only because of the greater mag capacity. But I'm not as crazy about 1911s as some.)
Why not consider an STI Spartan, a well-made 1911 in 9mm, or one of the pricier SVI or STI semi-custom guns in 9mm? You seem to think those guns can't be made to perform well, just because the original design was in .45, but you haven't explained why.
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