Fast Accurate Reliable - F.A.R.

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Giolli Joker

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Hi American handgunners,
I'd like to know if you've ever heard something about this interesting Italian design that could be considered a revolution in pistol designing.
F.A.R.
This design allows you to shoot high power calibers (the 9 F.A.R. energy is nearly the same of the .38 Super Auto) in simple blowback (i.e. fixed barrel) semi-autos, this because of the particular solid head shape of the case (see the links).
This is not only a new cartridge but an entirely new handgun system, suitable for every purpose; especially it should work extremely well in pratical shooting competitions.
I think that one of the best features of this system is the possibility to buy a conversion (barrel, slide and magazine, if necessary) that can fit any common 1911 frame. Tanfoglio/EAA sells complete F.A.R. pistols in Europe, but I've read that the developers of the system are still looking for an American pistolsmith to build the first guns for the U.S. market.
Here in Italy F.A.R. handguns are still quite rare and I've never shoot 'em but, who did, said that they're really fast, accurate and reliable as they claim.
I know that some prototypes have been shown in 2 SHOT Shows in these years, did some of you remember them?
What do you think about this system?
I like it a lot, not only because it seems to be very good, but also because I love new designs (I own a Mateba:D ) since most of the common hanguns are based on good but aged projects.






If what I've written is full of grammar mistakes... look at my signature.:D
 
Your English is fine. Better than many natives'. You type better, too.

I first read about the F.A.R. system at least two years ago. An Italian correspondent had seen Tanfoglio company representatives with the guns.

I think it is technically good and probably shoots very well.

The problem I see is that if you should put a standard cartridge in a F.A.R. pistol, the brass would probably rupture with damage to the gun and injury to the shooter. There are a lot of people in the USA who would try that because the F.A.R. ammunition is expensive. Or might do it accidentally. Then they would sue Tanfoglio and Lapua because of their stupidity. I do not think anybody here would care to assume the legal liability for a new design that is not a great improvement over the old. Perhaps if they had made it in a calibre that could not be confused with any other. I thought a 9.5mm would have been nice.
 
Ok. I've read the pamphlet on the web-site. I see a cartridge whose rear is solid brass with a thin primer flash hole through, a fixed barrel, and a direct blowback slide.

I shoot a lot of 3Gun and USPSA. Convince me why I want one.

Note that Speer Gold Dot 9x19 124gr +P shoots 1310fps from full-size conventional 9mm's.
 
@ Jim Watson
It's true that a standard cartridge can be chambered in a F.A.R. pistol and to avoid this accident the manufacturers decided to print race red F.A.R. logos on both sides of the slide of their guns... this may be enough for the medium shooter but surely isn't a stupid-proof solution, however I think that it can offer a legal protection against accusations of that kind.
Moreover I think that somoene looking for the performance of the F.A.R. System should know that he is buying a an entirely new gun-ammo system and not the usual gun... people discouraged by the price of the ammunition (which shouldn't be so high) would probably choose a more common design, while the accidental chambering of a different cartridge can be dangerous also in a standard gun.
In Italy I've never heard of accidents caused by the misuse of this kind of pistols also because who buys them is "F.A.R.-wise" so their diffusion is quite limited.
The 9mm caliber (such as the 10mm/.40 for the 10 F.A.R.) has been chosen because of the availability of bullets and the possibility to convert a 38 Super Auto handgun by changing only the barrel (it feeds from the same magazine and the external dimensions of the case base are the same of the 9mm family); dedicated gun have also a different slide that allows the axis of the barrel to be lowered of 2mm (0.08").
By now, the developers of this cartridge are looking for a gunsmith to enter the U.S. market so the possible problem you have pointed out (which could affect a mass production) isn't an issue.

Thanks for the comment about my English.:)


@ Zak Smith
F.A.R. handguns cycle faster and are intrinsically more accurate (fixed barrel) than conventional short-recoil pistols; they are perfect for USPSA competitions and, being the external dimensions and the performance of the 9 F.A.R. the same of the .38 Super Auto
, it's simple to convert a conventional gun. Moreover I know that the developers of the system are experimenting with new compensation holes similar to the Hibryd ones but that offer several advantages in blowback guns and this can also be interesting for a pratical shooter.
 
Giolli - I was unaware of this development - thx for the info.

Indeed - you have zero English problems that I can see - nicely laid out posts :)

I have moved this to autoloaders as being I think the better placing.
 
With the reduced powder volume, can a FAR cartridge fit enough pistol powder to make major and produce enough gas to run the comps effectively? Comped Open guns generally use a big charge of slow burning powder in order to get both the velocity and the gas pressure.

The downside of the solid base cartridge is that to achieve the same velocity, more pressure is required. USPSA shooters are known for running loads long (e.g. 40SW at 1.230") and high pressure. Reducing case volume significantly will mean we have to run higher pressures and/or lose velocity. If a handgun cartridge is basically limited in power by its case capacity, a FAR design will not help matters-- it'll reduce the potential.

In USPSA, accuracy of current pistols is not an issue--- a stock Glock has enough intrinsic accuracy to make every shot. So I don't see that as an advantage.

Do you have data comparing the cycle times of a FAR pistol compared to the "same" gun with a conventional barrel? What exactly is the difference?

What happens when slide mass is reduced and very light recoil springs are used? Note that both of these are done on USPSA/IPSC "Open" and "Limited" pistols to decrease cycle time and change recoil impulse to be more "flat."

Who is making reloading dies to handle (1) the FAR cartridges themselves, and (2) decap systems to handle the very long flash holes?
 
so, let's see... they're marketing a system based on its simplicity to people with whacked out race guns, its lower manufacturing costs to people who pay for said race guns, and 9x19 performance to people running 38 supers? am i missing something here?
 
I don't see fixed barrel as being necessarily more accurate that a short recoil gun unless its built like the Ruger .22s are where the rear sight is also fixed to the frame. If its like a Makarov sights are on the slide, barrel is fixed to the frame and little but spring pressure controls how the slide sits relative to the barrel. Given that blowbacks put more powder fouling into the "guts" if the clearances are enough to be reliable I'd expect POI/POA to vary as the gun gets dirty.

Explain how this is a "better" system than say the blowback 9mm HiPoint pistol?

I didn't see any useful info on the web link.

--wally.
 
wally said:
Explain how this is a "better" system than say the blowback 9mm HiPoint pistol?
Click to expand...
really now, did you have to resort to profanity? You could have said "delayed blowback H&K VP70, P9S, P7M8 etc."
 
I was under the impression this was a Tanfoglio product, so would they not just export it to the US market via their current importer? Are you certain they are looking for a US gunsmith to handle this?

GR
 
"we've got this marvelous new product that's different from anything else out there, and will have a hard time gaining market acceptance. customers are going to need someone with excellent support to talk to, or it'll go nowhere. who's our importer, again?"
"eaa."
 
I spoke to EAA about the FAR system about 2 or so years ago. It looked insteresting, but they never imported it. I'd like to see Tanfolgio import thier 1911 clones, and the Stock Defense before this, and FIND A DIFFERANT IMPORTER! EAA has a horrible rep, and I used to be the biggest diehard Tanfoglio fan you could ever find. Don't have one left, and carry a CZ now. Good guns, but horrible customer service.
 
@ Zak Smith
Although I'd like to be, I'm not a pratical shooter, I can only tell you what I've read. I've no infos about the maximum pressure safely achievable with a 9 F.A.R. cartridge, and I don't know how it behaves in an Open autoloader; I'll ask the developers of the system to tell me more, by now I can tell you that the most powerful commercial load launches a 124 grs. bullet at 420 m/s (nearly 1380 fps) out of a 5" barrel.
The F.A.R. System is designed to work flawlessly with light slides and very light recoil springs because the delaying of blowback movement is achieved only by the solid part of the case. While a the slide of short-recoil operated handgun starts recoiling linked to the barrel, the slide of a F.A.R. pistol is free to recoil alone, without the added mass of the barrel, so it cycles faster (I can't tell you how much... I'll ask).
Another advantage is that a fixed barrel handgun offers a better battery alignment since all the movements of the cycle are in-line.
I don't know who is making the proper reloading equipment but I know that it exists; by the way, the case is slightly different from the machined prototypes you've seen in the pamphlet, the flash hole is mainly conical (easier to be factory produced) allowing a minimal increase in case volume.


@ Grayrider
I'm really sure they're still looking for an American pistolsmith to offer the first conversions.
I talked with the Italian "marketing mind" behind this project and he didn't mention EAA.


@ all
I've written all that I know about F.A.R., I'm trying to gain more infos... I hope I'll be able to tell you more during the next days.
 
Giolli Joker said:
@ Zak Smith

The F.A.R. System is designed to work flawlessly with light slides and very light recoil springs because the delaying of blowback movement is achieved only by the solid part of the case.
Click to expand...
As soon as there is pressure, the case starts to move back, resisted by the momentum of the slide primarily. What keeps the FAR rounds from exploding is that the first it looks like about 1/4" of the travel the only part of the case which is exposed is the solid portion. To ensure safety, the time it takes for the slide+cartridge to move this distance (determined by the slide mass and round pressure) must be more than the time it takes for the chamber pressure to drop to safe levels.
 
You're right, but the solid portion of the case is long enough to ensure safety with every feasible barrel-time, I've read of successful tests with proff rounds (30% above maximum pressure) and light springs or with longer barrels (up to 16", in the prototype pistol/carbine Tanfoglio Spitfire).
However I've asked the developers of the system to give me more technical data.
 
Hi

My name is Maurizio Piccolo and I'm interested in the FAR project.
My english is'nt very good, but I can arrange myself to understand and to be understood(I hope).
I will answer to all the ask step by step, but at the same time you can make other request of information.
I start with the first 2 message:
Giolli Joker - For which reason you have put me in this situation? I don't understand a lot about weapon.
My specialty about mechanic is the work on the metal sheet punching, profiling and embossing but I'll try to explain something about the FAR
Jim Watson - Be sure before having accepted our patent by USA we have made all the test about safety. With a pressure double in front of the normal (5.000 against 2600) of a cartridge of 9 x 19 in the chamber of a 9 x 24 we have the only same problem of a normal cartridge : you have not the cycle and the second shot will not function, but any damage and any risk neither for the shooter neither for the pistol. In this system any gas blow out from the barrel and never from the back. With some ammunition ovecharged mixed with other ammunition lowcharged in the same magazine the pistol has a normal cycle because anything is compensated by the system without changing slide and spring. The only rupture has happened with ammunition overcharged and what the result? A ring of brass has remained in the chamber the most thin part of the case but the solid brass of the back has avoided to let pass any gas by the grip as it happen with the traditional system when a brass blow.
About the advantage I believe the first three are:
- a case that remain perfect after the shooting can be reloaded with more accuracy and more times-the brass of a 9 FAR doesn't move in the back where you have the flash hole because is a solid block
- during the shoot with caliber of more than .38 you have a reaction coming from the tilting of the moving of the little hammer that work on the hand when the barrel come back to look for the new ammunition
- the same mouvement is responsible of the first phisycal moment that produce the muzzle jump with the second that is the moment in which the bullet come out from the barrel-in our system you have only the second and this permit to remain better in line with high power shooting=major factor-with our system is easier to make a double shoot in the same point because you avoid the most part of the muzzle jump.
For the moment I stop explaining that the final drawing of the case is more conical in the center so the depth of the flash hole is about 2 millimeter like in the 9 x 19.
I can send a drawing or you can see alt.binaries.pictures.weapons under the message
9 x 24 mm FAR case.
I remain at your disposal and now I go to sleep because in Italy is very late.
Bye from Corsica
 
Thanks

To P 95 thank for your welcome
Even if I'm not an expert about weapons I try to explain what I've learned in the last 5 years. My interest in mechanic is about lubrication in stamping www.oil-sa.com and I have founded with other person an association to defend the rights of the shooter and the collectioner of weapons that is called AUDA www.auda.it
At the same time I thank Giolli Joker that is one of our associates more active and has permitted me to write about the FAR.
I go on with the answer
Zak Smith - I believe the best is you make a test to convince you. But only to go on with the reflections I say
Imagine a compensator like the FAR Up that can work only on the FAR System that is made like in this photo
http://e01.edisport.it/__c1256a0600...56dac00564400?openDocument&Highlight=2,far-up
and you can work like a hybrid and at the same time the gas will control the move of your slide and say me if it is not an interesting thing. 1.500 shoots without cleaning and the system work without any flash because the fire is cut by the movment of the slide. You can shoot in a night pratically without moon and you don't see any flash.
Say me if it is possible to have like in the FAR System a blowback with a spring very soft because the closure is not given by the strenght of the spring but by the hardness of the back of the ammunition and explain me if you are not glad to have a pistol that is the more simple it's possible.
I have finished at the moment but follow the other answers probably you will find some other things interesting for you.
My friend Giolli Joker
Is an idiot-proofing solution: any accident can occurr because we have made all the test you can imagine and we have made the test of using ammunition in 9 FAR in a Gabilondo in 9 mm Largo a pistol that has a lot of problem to work. We have invited in Italy the inventor of the Gabilondo a spanish that was astonished how his pistol can function very well. Imagine that the chamber has to be 23,11 and not 24,15 but he has dismounted the pistol to convinced him there was any modification.
We have made the test with the Gabilondo because the system doesn't accept too much power in the ammunition of the 9 mm Largo. If you have some other idea about the safety say me and we control if we have already test that because we have a lot of fear of a damage that can happen in USA.
About the frame you cannot use for the conversion any frame but only that one of 38 S.A. and 45 because of the lenght of the ammunition. The frame of the 9 is too short for the magazine. The same thing for the 10/.40 FAR that is long and don't accept the frame of the 40 S&W but need the frame of the 10 Auto.
I confirm of having already done the test on Colt frame, the Far-Up in the previous photo is an example, and we have all the drawing if a gunsmith want to make a pistol on a Colt system.
In the drawing we have both the solution with the invitation for the ammunition or not in the frame.
At the moment I stop till the next pair of answers and excuse my bad english and if I have made some mistake in some words let me the margin to make a correction.
Many greets from
Maurizio
Ciao
 
Maurizio,

What is your affiliation with Tanfoglio? Many of us in the United States were under the impression FAR was a Tanfoglio product.

GR
 
Avenger%20on%20Target.jpg

Didn't Hogue try something like this already? http://www.hogueinc.com/getgrip/merchant.ihtml?id=516&step=2
 
Answer to the 2 last

Grayrider
The first producer of FAR System has to be Sig but we have not be ready at the time with the case made by stamping.
The risk in the new system was to don't have the control of the effect of the friction between chamber and case by using a case made from turning because is real that the cases coming from turning can ameliorate the system, but the case coming from stamping can reduce the friction and change the result of the experiments.
So we have found Tanfoglio ready to accept our system when we have been ready with case made by stamping and coming from Lapua.
Now Tanfoglio has become a friend but remain only the first producer of the first pistol working with the FAR system.
The patent at the moment of the FAR is in the hand for the most part of the inventor Mr Cudazzo and the other part in my hand.
Chuck Perry
I have seen this system at the Shot Show last year in the booth of Hogue.
The advantage of this system is that you don't change the ammunition, but you must have a complication about the pistol. Our idea was to simplify the pistol, imagine for example in a full auto, having all the advantages of the simple solution.
Ciao
Maurizio
 
I go on with the answers

Zak Smith
No problem about the powder neither with the old drawing.
Look at the previous answer about the tilting on the hand and the barrel that is evident when it is fixed can give only advantage.
Neither Grauffel, was affirmed by him, can have an advantage by the speed of cycle, the human limit was already attended without our system. See:
http://www.ericgrauffel.com/
under Internet videos "steel plates" is made with a FAR.
No problem with lighter mass of the slide, but interesting with a pistol for Bianchi Cup of Luca Mangano we have arrived to shot without using both hand but using the pistol free of moving with only one hand this is more difficult to do for the problem of recycling.
The dies for the FAR are a mixt of different dies for .38 and 9 and are present in the catalogues Lee and RCBS.
The depth of the flash hole that before was very high and made by drilling with the new drawing is made by punching and has a depth of 2 millimeters like the 9 x 19.
pauli
Excuse my english has not permitted me to understand your question
wally
In the little caliber you have the fixed barrel, but it's easy.
In the 9(.38), 10(.40) caliber is harder to compensated the violence of the stroke.
Mixt
About the problem with EAA and Tanfoglio write directly to Tanfoglio, I believe they are very serious and I'll write to them to read this thread to have some information.
The e-mail is: [email protected]
Zak Smith
When you shoot be tranquil, we have done the test near the biggest italian company with a camera at 2.000 frame per second and we have controlled that the portion of solid brass is 40% in safety to permit to the gas pressure to be at the lowest worth.
That one is very important for the future development of the full auto where the cycle time is shorter in front of the speed of a human shooter. With the top of 7/8 stroke per second we are sure, sure and sure again.
Friendly
Ciao
Maurizio
N.B. I was not sure to arrive at the end so easily.
 
A while back somebody tried a gas-retarded fixed-barrel system in the 1911. It was was a reliability failure because the lack of barrel tilting.

Tell us how reliable this system is in a SV/STI "2011" style pistol, or a single-stack 1911?
 
@ Zak Smith
Are you talkin' about this?
I think that the reliability failures you've pointed out involved feeding:the F.A.R. system is completely reliable in a 1911, or double stack, frame, because it uses barrels with feeding-ramps different from the ones of tilting barrels and the barrel is 2mm (0.08") lower.
Corsica will be more accurate if I'm wrong.;)
 
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