Remington Model 51 -- John Pedersen

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Please support your statement that Sam Colt designed his revolver for the Cavalry. Your argument might be compelling if the gun FIRED from the left or right hand, but we are only talking about reloading... a two-handed endeavor and one that is decidedly difficult when holding the reigns of a horse.

Secondly, if one is riding a horse, how is it possible to do this task with one weapon in each hand? I find your statements very unconvincing however it seems you are at least agreeing that the Colt was designed to be operated from the left hand, correct?
 
I had never seen a Model 53 Remington. What a neat pistol! I love the lines, especially the slim slide. It reminds me a bit of the Spanish Campo-Giro, but maybe that's just my imagination.
 
Please support your statement that Sam Colt designed his revolver for the Cavalry. Your argument might be compelling if the gun FIRED from the left or right hand, but we are only talking about reloading... a two-handed endeavor and one that is decidedly difficult when holding the reigns of a horse.
That is absolutely too easy. The gun was designed specifically for the US government service revolver trials of 1873. The primary user of pistols in the military was the cavalry, and this remained true right up to the time the M1911 was adopted, and is also why cavalry officers had the most input into that weapon's design -- the grip safety and thumb safety were incorporated at the request of cavalry officers who were worried about accidental discharges of a cocked pistol on the back of a moving horse, especially during reholstering). The second most common user of pistols in the army were officers in the other branches, and they also carried swords to be used in the right hand -- which, once again, is why military holsters of the period were all designed for a left hand draw (consult virtually any photograph of Civil War officers, if you doubt this). It wasn't because most people were left handed back then. All this is pretty common knowledge. Honestly, I feel like I'm being asked to prove the sky is blue.

Secondly, if one is riding a horse, how is it possible to do this task with one weapon in each hand? I find your statements very unconvincing however it seems you are at least agreeing that the Colt was designed to be operated from the left hand, correct?
Have you ever ridden a horse? It is possible (and I already said this) for a trained horseman to control the horse's direction with the knees alone. How do you think horse archers like the Huns, Avars, Magyars, Mongols, Turks, et al. did it for centuries? They needed both hands for the bow. Take a look at the photographs on this site, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_archery

You'll note the photographs of the horsemen shooting bows from horseback, and no reins in the hands.

Now cavalrymen usually used either the pistol or the sword, and not both at the same time. But they were trained to do both at once if need be, and their gear facilitated this. And since the sword, the arme blanche, was traditionally considered the primary weapon of the cavalry, the sword was meant to be used in the strong hand. And unlike the common troops, officers in other branches, such as infantry and artillery, rode to battle on horseback, sometimes even commanding from up in the saddle, since they had a better view of the field (the downside was this made them better targets), their gear was similar to that of a cavalryman. Look at the movie "Glory", for example. It's a movie, but they got some of the details of military drill and training right. Matthew Broderick, as Col. Robert Gould Shaw, wields his officer's saber in his right hand, and his Colt Navy revolver in his left hand in a couple of scenes. This is absolutely accurate to the period. And this is why the Colt SAA, as a military sidearm, first and foremost, was designed to be used left handed, while the right was expected to be occupied with a sword.
 
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A sword in one hand and a revolver in the other? I find this DUBIOUS.

A Revolver designed with the loading port positioned for operation with the left hand so that it may be loaded with the hand holding the sword while the horse continues to gallup? I find this DUBIOUS.

A revolver designer who was said to be left handed (as evidenced by his penmanship as I have heard) designing a gun that works with his hands? I find this plausable.

The fact that Sam Colt had been dead for 10 years before the Peacemaker came out... Well... yeah.

Actually, capping a revolver held in the right hand is easier done from the right side of the revolver.... So... Sam Colt actually designed his revolver for right-handed use. Kinda blows the other arguments out of the water, eh?
 
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A sword in one hand and a revolver in the other? I find this DUBIOUS.
You shouldn't. Not only is it obvious from the design of the gear, it's also a documented fact that the sword was the primary weapon, and the pistol the secondary. As the secondary weapon, the pistol was designed, along with its manual of arms, around use in the secondary hand. Look at Cooke's Cavalry Tactics from 1862. Any weapon was held in the right hand, while the other hand was on the reins. But it was also possible to use sword in one hand, and pistol in the other (and when this was done, it was the sword, as the dominant weapon, that would be in the right hand), or both hands on the carbine.

A Revolver designed with the loading port positioned for operation with the left hand so that it may be loaded with the hand holding the sword while the horse continues to gallup? I find this DUBIOUS.
It wasn't designed for reloading while the other hand was holding the sword. At this point you are being deliberately obtuse. But it was a secondary weapon (in traditional terms, if not in practical one -- but the military is a very tradition bound organization) and as I said, it's entire manual of arms was designed around this fact, and its use in the secondary hand.

A revolver designer who was said to be left handed (as evidenced by his penmanship as I have heard) designing a gun that works with his hands? I find this plausable.
Colt didn't design the SAA. Kind of a problem for your theory, don't you think? He was dead before the Rollin White patent even expired and his company could make a revolver with bored through cylinders.

I find it more plausible that since this weapon was designed specifically to fulfill a military contract, it was designed to conform to military specifications, just like ever other weapon the military solicits contracts for.

The fact that Sam Colt had been dead for 10 years before the Peacemaker came out... Well... yeah.
Which really sort of knocks a hole in the idea that he had the final say in its design, wouldn't you say? Why would the Colt company design and market a gun to conform to the desires of a chief executive ten years in his grave? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Actually, capping a revolver held in the right hand is easier done from the right side of the revolver.... So... Sam Colt actually designed his revolver for right-handed use. Kinda blows the other arguments out of the water, eh?
I don't see how you figure this at all. If you hold the revolver in your left hand, your right easily places the caps on the cylinder, since the relief cut to allow this is on the right side of the weapon. If you hold the revolver in your right hand, you have to rotate the gun over 90 degrees in order to reach over the top of the revolver and place the caps on the opposite side -- the right side. As a result. most people capping the pistol switch it to their left hand, so their right can place the caps on the cylinder. Kinda makes it look like it was designed to be held in the left hand all along, doesn't it?
 
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You resurrected a dead thread to argue that a Dead guy designed a gun for the Cavalry and yet you won't concede that while he was alive he designed it for right-handed use? This thread was about the Remington 51... start another thread if you want to start a cock fight. I believe that whatever I say you will argue with.
 
The thread isn't that old, and I am not the one who argued that a man ten years in his grave designed a gun for lefties; you did that. And when I see someone putting out erroneous information, I feel a desire to set the record straight. Sorry, but people googling for info about the Remington Model 51 may come across this thread (that's precisely how I did), and read your comment about the SAA and believe it. And not only do I just hate to see people who don't know any better misled, it honestly never occurred to me that you would become so offended at being told you're wrong about something. And I'd be happy to take the discussion to another thread, but you made your erroneous assertion here. So if I start another thread on the matter, anyone reading the incorrect assertion here won't get the correct answer, now will they?
 
Good grief! Sam Colt died in 1862, and the SAA wasn't introduced until 1873!

Just hold the gun and reflect how it should feel and heft, and note that the loading gate is on the right side of the frame...for a right-handed person.

Cavalry holsters were used with "reverse" draw to get the gun in the right hand, while allowing for left-hand access, too.

Most soldiers are right-handed. The Army knew that in the 1870's. Colt knew that in addressing the commercial appeal of the new gun, too.

Frankly, it is almost inconceivable that Colt would make the gun mainly for left-handed people! It may have been hoped that persons with a master hand on either side would find the gun easily useable.

This idea that the Colt SAA was meant for left-handed users was probably conceived by a now-deceased manufacturer of similar revolvers that he said were set up "right" for right-handed men. Personally, I thought that was a sales tool. And I have never read or heard anywhere else that the Colt was a "left-handed gun." That doesn't even apply to Billy the Kid. A famous photo of him was supposedly reversed when printed, leading people to think that he was left-handed. So much for the movie, "The Left-handed Gun."

I think the issue is unworthy of further attention., Just regard it as a bonus if you're left-handed and the gun works well for you. If you're right-handed, it'll work for you, too, as it has for such a long time, for primarily right-handed users. If the matter seriously bothers anyone today, there are many modern guns that are much more practical, anyway.

At this rate, someone will probably point out that the cavalry was also the primary intended user of the Colt M-1911 pistol, or the Colt DA revolvers. But none of the official holsters for the M-1911 was ever built for left-handed access. And cavalry was still a very real force going into WW II, and the Patton saber of 1913 was meant to be a fully serviceable weapon! The M-1903 Springfield rifle was deliberately designed to be a compromise length for both infantry and for cavalry.

If anyone can actually prove that either Colt or the War Department intended the SAA to be mainly for left-handed use, I'd be very interested to see his documentation.

Lone Star
 
Just hold the gun and reflect how it should feel and heft, and note that the loading gate is on the right side of the frame...for a right-handed person.

No, the gate on the right side allows easier access for a left-handed person. Try the reloads yourself.
 
I have tried the reloads, myself. Your mileage varied.

This is not a debate which I want to continue. But many newbies to firearms find their way to this board, and I didn't want them to be misinformed.
If you can produce original War Department or Colt documents supporting your claim, please do. Many would love to see them, if verified.

Lone Star
 
Good grief! Sam Colt died in 1862, and the SAA wasn't introduced until 1873!

Just hold the gun and reflect how it should feel and heft, and note that the loading gate is on the right side of the frame...for a right-handed person.
Actually that doesn't track. What's the first thing most people do when reloading an SAA? Shift it to the left hand, so the right can punch out the spent cartridges with the ejector rod, and then push fresh cartridges through the loading gate on the right side of the frame. If you hold it in your right hand (the same hand most people shoot it with), you have to reach over the top strap and around to the other side of the gun to do these things. It was the same for the 1860 army and 1851 navy. The caps went on the right side, and the cut out to put the bullets in front of the lowest chamber for the rammer to force them in were also on the right side of the gun, making it easiest to hold the revolver in the left hand while performing these actions.

Cavalry holsters were used with "reverse" draw to get the gun in the right hand, while allowing for left-hand access, too.

Most soldiers are right-handed. The Army knew that in the 1870's. Colt knew that in addressing the commercial appeal of the new gun, too.

Frankly, it is almost inconceivable that Colt would make the gun mainly for left-handed people! It may have been hoped that persons with a master hand on either side would find the gun easily useable.
Colt’s didn't make it for left handed people, they made it made it for a military requirement that saw the revolver as a secondary weapon to the arme blanche, and was meant to be accessible mainly to the secondary hand.

This idea that the Colt SAA was meant for left-handed users was probably conceived by a now-deceased manufacturer of similar revolvers that he said were set up "right" for right-handed men. Personally, I thought that was a sales tool. And I have never read or heard anywhere else that the Colt was a "left-handed gun." That doesn't even apply to Billy the Kid. A famous photo of him was supposedly reversed when printed, leading people to think that he was left-handed. So much for the movie, "The Left-handed Gun."

I think the issue is unworthy of further attention., Just regard it as a bonus if you're left-handed and the gun works well for you. If you're right-handed, it'll work for you, too, as it has for such a long time, for primarily right-handed users. If the matter seriously bothers anyone today, there are many modern guns that are much more practical, anyway.

At this rate, someone will probably point out that the cavalry was also the primary intended user of the Colt M-1911 pistol, or the Colt DA revolvers. But none of the official holsters for the M-1911 was ever built for left-handed access. And cavalry was still a very real force going into WW II, and the Patton saber of 1913 was meant to be a fully serviceable weapon! The M-1903 Springfield rifle was deliberately designed to be a compromise length for both infantry and for cavalry.
There’s a reason the design of the holsters changed. Think about it. When the left-handed holsters for the cap and ball revolvers were designed, the revolver had only been on the scene a very short time. Just a few short years earlier, the only pistol available to the army was single-shot muzzle loader. The sword was still regarded as the primary weapon. The pistol was still regarded as secondary. And back when the only pistols available were single shots, that made sense. Then revolvers came along, but it took some time for military officers to adjust to the capabilities of the new handguns, and what that meant for cavalry tactics, and for the use of the saber. By the time the Colt DA revolver and the M1911 were adopted, it was decades later, during which time tactics had changed, a new generation of soldiers had grown up, and the gear reflected the change in orientation away from the saber and toward the pistol. Think about what the army had been doing between 1865, and 1890. During this period, the army’s primary job was Indian fighting, and in that job the saber was seldom if ever used, and in fact was frequently left in the fort when the troopers went out on patrol. It was cumbersome, and made noise, and the troops almost never used it anyway. A generation of practical experience had taught the soldiers by then that, tradition or not, in any practical sense, the sword wasn’t the primary weapon anymore. The pistol holsters now reflected this, and were meant to be accessed primarily by the dominant hand.

Sure the Patton saber was adopted, and meant to be issued. But as I said, the military is a very, very conservative, tradition bound, organization. It always takes them a while to adjust to new realities. Just look at how long it’s always taken to adjust tactics to changes in battlefield reality brought about by new weaponry. In the Civil War, they still occasionally tried mass formations and frontal assaults straight out of the Napoleonic Wars, even though those were suicidal now that soldiers were shooting rifles with an effective range of 500 yards, instead of muskets with an effective range of 80 (q.v Fredericksburg, Pickett’s Charge, et al.). And in that same war, conservative, backward-looking ordnance chiefs blocked the widespread adoption of available breech loaders and repeaters in favor of muzzle loaders (q.v. Col. James Ripley, AKA “Ripley Van Winkle”). And all militaries seem to be like this. At the start of WWI, the French cavalry was still wearing bright red pants and blue coats, that only high casualties forced them to abandon, and even then not all the officers wanted to give them up! So just because the sword was issued, and even meant to be used by officers who hadn’t yet come to terms with the fact that it’s day was over, doesn’t mean it got any actual, practical use by that time.

If anyone can actually prove that either Colt or the War Department intended the SAA to be mainly for left-handed use, I'd be very interested to see his documentation.

Lone Star

I refer you to Cooke’s Cavalry Tactics of 1862.

http://members.cox.net/ltclee/Cooke.htm#ManPist
SCHOOL OF THE

Draw—PISTOL.

1 time.

62.—At the command, PISTOL, with the right hand un¬button the flap of the belt-hoister, draw the pistol, and, holding it at the stock, with the point of the forefinger reaching above the trigger guard, carry it vertically, with the hand as high as the right shoulder, and six inches in front of it.
63.—The instructor commands:

READY.

1 time.

At this command, place the pistol in the left hand, as the height of the breast, the muzzle elevated and directed to the left front, cock and raise pistol, (position No. 62.)

AIM.

1 time.

64.—At this command, lower the pistol to the front, the arm about three-fourths extended, the forefinger upon the trigger; aim with the right eye, the left eye closed.

FIRE.

1 time.

65.—At this command, fire and raise pistol.
66.—At the position of AIM, the instructor may command, raise—PISTOL, at which command the men raise the pistols to the position No. 62; and if the pistol is not fired, at the command, return—P15T0L, first let down the hammer.
This is describing formal drill, but what it interesting is that even though the pistol is being drawn with the right hand, it is then being transferred to, and shot in the left. Now why would the army teach its cavalry troopers, who would be predominantly right-handed, to shoot their revolvers in the left hand? As I’ve been saying all along: because at this period in time, the sword was considered the dominant weapon, and the pistol the secondary one.
 
Well, I'll concede that the "arme blanche" had its place, and that extended into the British cavalry charge at Elandslaagte in the Boer War. The Boers were using 7mm Mausers, but many were slaughtered by British lancers, in what the Boers considered a barbaric charge. But a deadly one!

Cavalry was also effectively used at Omdurman, in the Sudan in 1898, where a young lieutenant in the 21st Lancers named Winston Churchill found his pistol better than his sword, in part because he had an injured shoulder.
He was using a 7.63mm Mauser, and in his account of the charge in, "My Early Life", the future Prime Minister and eventual Knight of the Order of the Garter said that he killed three men for certain, wounded at least one and another "doubtful". I think he claimed two as probably dead; don't have tiome to look it up now. The men he shot were Dervishes trying to get to him with their swords.

The machinegun pretty well made cavalry obsolete in WW I, although they were still used until replaced by tanks in WW II. I doubt that any US cavalry unit was employed in WW II battle. Maybe in the Phillipines?

I suppose that Col. John S. Mosby, CSA, was correct in saying that his command did as much as any to prove the effectiveness of the revolver as a close-in weapon. He wore a Colt .44 on each side, and used them well. But I believe that Mosby was right-handed, and he almost never used a saber, which he regarded as obsolete.
 
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FWIW: William Mason is typically credited with the design of the Colt M1873 SAA.

Having the loading gate on the right side was pretty well established by the first cartridge conversions of the cap and ball Colt revolvers. As for the latter, I'd definitely want to use my most dexterous hand when trying to place primer caps on the nipples of a cylinder.
 
The arguments are interesting, but far fetched. The loading gate on the Colt SAA is on the right simply because the capping cutout was in that position on the percussion guns and it was easy to just fill that hole with the loading gate on the cartridge conversions and later on the SAA.

If the SAA loading gate is on the right because Sam Colt was left handed, then the designers at Remington, M&H, and dozens of other companies who put the loading gate or loading slot on the right must also have been southpaws.

But the idea that the saber was considered the primary weapon of horse cavalry is true; nor was it necessarily due to tradition or backwardness. One old horse soldier is reported to have said that he preferred the saber because "it don't run out of ammunition."

Jim
 
Wow.

In less than one page this thread drifted from a pretty nice thread about the Remington Model 51 into an arguement whether Sam Colt was still left handed ten years after he died.:cuss:

Could you guys start a new thread about the Colt SAA somewhere else? Like in REVOLVERS?
 
remington 51

Just for the record, my Remington 51's shoot well in either hand, one in each hand feels good too.
Just got one back from my gunsmith and its as pretty as a picture.
I have submitted one to Remington's research page and will submit the others when I get time to take pictures of them.
I will post them here as well. Everyone I have handed my 51's to-loves the way it feels in their hand. Which is odd because I have short thick fingers, one friend has large mits, one was a female with skinny long fingers, and the other is a friend with average size hands. Everyone agrees it feels natural and everyone shoots well with it with no previous practice with it.
I wish it were possible to shoot the remington 53 but I understand there is only the one in the museum. The reason I got into starting to collect these fine old guns is because a friend had one and brought it out while we were target shooting and said try this one out. I hit everything I aimed at right off the bat and it felt "right". It was then I decided I would own at least one of these.
 
//You resurrected a dead thread ... I believe that whatever I say you will argue with.//

/The thread isn't that old/
wow
 
Wow I'd really like to know if I can cut this thread in half.

That Remington 53 in 45 ACP is pretty space age looking for its time. I'd love to see a verson of that produced, it looks almost elegant.
 
As a gunsmith, I have worked with only a few Remington 51s. One had a bulged barrel which could happen to any gun, but the thing that concerned me is that I had two cases of cracked breechblocks. The breechblock in the 51, as beautiful a gun as it is, is very fragile at its rear end, and both were cracked at the firing pin cutout.

One other case was not the gun's fault. Some moron had installed a "custom made" firing pin in an attempt to make the gun full auto. THAT one I'll never figure out.:D
 
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