FBI/ATF agents buying a gun....

[RDCL]

I've often wondered about this. Suppose John Doe.....FBI "special agent" & gun enthusiest.....decides he wants a new handgun. Must he, like the rest of us fill out a 4473?
What about any LEO for that matter?

It would seem to me that they should not have to. I mean really.....if a guy is an FBI agent it goes without saying that he's as "clean" as a whistle....would'nt you think?

Curious,
Russ

 

[Rio Laxas]

Yes they do. The first CHL course I took was taught by a LEO who griped about that very issue. It is also my understanding that an LEO can be subject to a restraining order which makes them ineligible to possess or receive firearms except their deparment issued firearm.

 

[CleverNickname]

Not only that, they aren't exempt from NICS like some CHL licensees are.

 

[RDCL]

That's just silly IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

Russ

 

[brboyer]

Not only that, they aren't exempt from NICS like some CHL licensees are.

Or the 3-day waiting period in Florida. (Unless they have a CWFL)

 

[JellyJar]

It is also my understanding that an LEO can be subject to a restraining order which makes them ineligible to possess or receive firearms except their deparment issued firearm.

In many departments all the handguns are privately purchased and owned by the officer. What do they do then?

 

[brboyer]

In many departments all the handguns are privately purchased and owned by the officer. What do they do then?

Judge either makes exceptions for on-duty use or they sit at a desk job, if available, otherwise it's the unemployment line.

 

[NavyLCDR]

That's just silly IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

Russ

Why is it silly? Why should they get special treatment that Joe Schmoe does not get? AND... Don't FBI agents commit crime?

John J. "Zip" Connolly, Jr. is a former FBI agent, currently incarcerated in a federal penitentiary for racketeering and obstruction of justice convictions stemming from his relationship with James J. "Whitey" Bulger, Steve Flemmi, and the Winter Hill Gang. He is the brother-in-law of Arthur Gianelli who is married to Mary Ann Moore, the sister of Connolly's wife Elizabeth.

State police and other federal officers had been trying to imprison Whitey Bulger for years, but somehow Bulger always avoided getting caught. As the FBI handler for Bulger and Flemmi, Connolly (who had grown up in the Old Harbor Housing Project with Bulger) had been protecting them from prosecution by feeding him information about possible attempts to catch them.

Connolly was indicted on December 22, 1999 on charges of alerting Bulger and Flemmi to investigations, falsifying FBI reports to cover their crimes, and accepting bribes. In 2000, he was charged with additional racketeering related offenses. He was convicted on the racketeering charges in 2002 and sentenced to 10 years in prison.

Robert Philip Hanssen (born April 18, 1944) is a former American FBI agent who spied for Soviet and Russian intelligence services against the United States for 22 years from 1979 to 2001. He is currently serving a life sentence at the Federal Bureau of Prisons Administrative Maximum facility in Florence, Colorado, a "Supermax" federal penitentiary in which Hanssen spends 23 hours a day in solitary confinement.

George Gordon Battle Liddy (born November 30, 1930) was the chief operative for the White House Plumbers unit that existed during several years of Richard Nixon's Presidency. Along with E. Howard Hunt, Liddy masterminded the first break-in of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate building in 1972. The subsequent cover-up of the Watergate scandal led to Nixon's resignation in 1974; Liddy served four and a half years in prison for his role in the burglary.

Richard W. Miller was the first member of the FBI to be indicted for espionage.

Need we continue?

 

[Flea]

Actually, that means ANY weapon, including dept. issued. Usually a restraining order won't take away your guns unless the judge spells it out; it's also only good in the state it's filed in.

An order of protection, on the other hand, means you have to surrender your weapons, and it's enforceable in all 50.

Orders of Protections only go with Domestic Disturbances, so Joe Taxpayer can't take one out on an officer; you have to be a relative/significant other to the reverse party. Most of the time, in order to have this Order in place, you've likely done something that would get you fired from a police dept in the first place.

 

[Guns and more]

.if a guy is an FBI agent it goes without saying that he's as "clean" as a whistle....would'nt you think?

No.
Maybe he beats his wife. Maybe he has a restraining order against him. Maybe he's been convicted of domestic violence.
Do you assume FBI agents are squeeky clean? I don't.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Flea,

Edited: I see what you are getting at. You are using the term restraining order to mean between two people who aren't related.... YES, you are correct!

Actually, that means ANY weapon, including dept. issued. Usually a restraining order won't take away your guns unless the judge spells it out;

Source: 18 USC 922 (g)(8): USC is United States Code - Federal Law

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(8) who is subject to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury;
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

You are correct, there is no exception in the above Federal law for firearms issued by a state/municipal agency such as police department, nor is there an exception for military personnel.

The DOD just came out with a recent message in the last couple of months that military members subject to any weapons restrictions may be discharged administratively.

 

[kingpin008]

NavyLT beat me to it - the fact that someone is "from the gov't" doesn't mean they're good people. A badge is not a magic talisman against corruption.

To believe so is to be dangerously naive, imho.

 

[Art Eatman]

A US Marshall was buying a gun from a gunsmith friend of mine. We both had to laugh at the kid's discomfiture at having to wait on a NICS call. We have CHLs; he didn't. How sad, too bad.

We naturally had to ask him if he thought he could make it through the Texas CHL qualifications.

Of course, he can "tote" on an airplane...

 

[Diggers]

In CA all the paper work is the same for LEO's and non-LEO's alike. There are a few perks for LEO's though. If the LEO gets a letter from the department they work for there is no two week waiting period.
Also there is no restriction on how many guns LEO's can buy in a month. Its only one gun a month for everyone else.

 

[Girodin]

Why is it silly? Why should they get special treatment that Joe Schmoe does not get?

I don't think the argument is that they should get special treatment. Rather if you have ever obtained a security clearance with the Fed govt you know that you get background checked up the freaking ying yang. It is a background check that is much much more in depth than what is occurring when one buys a gun. I think what the OP is saying is that the background check to buy a gun is superfluous to the point of being silly.

NavyLT beat me to it - the fact that someone is "from the gov't" doesn't mean they're good people. A badge is not a magic talisman against corruption.

No it is not but I don't think that is the point anyone was trying to make. Rather if you are a current FBI agent in good standing there is most likely nothing that is going to disqualify you from making a gun purchase. The one issue that I could see possibly coming into play would be a domestic dispute with restraining order or something of that nature.

It doesn't bother me that they have to go through a check but I can see why a person might think requiring it is silly.

If we streamline things (i.e. give special treatment) for people with carry permits on the logic they have already undergone background checks then is it not logically consistent to say someone with a security clearance should get at least that and maybe even more on the bases they have undergone/continue to under go much greater scrutiny? We let them do all kinds of other gun things that we don't let others do based on this logic. They can carry in areas a CCW holder cannot for example.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I work in a Federal LEO position. If I was convicted of anything that prohibited me from possessing a firearm I would be terminated from my job. I don't even carry a firearm at work and I haven't for years but it is still a condition of my employment.

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

A friend of mine was doing the 4473 for a deputy while I was hanging out and learning how to help with the process. The officer had to do the paperwork and wait for the instant (20 minutes) background check.

I do not know if he was an undercover officer or not, but I do remember he did not put down his address on the form.
He put the Sheriff's Dept. address instead. It was also the address on his driver's license. He was asked to talk to the person from the State Police answering the call.

My friend was then given the phone back for the approval number.

Just thought it was different enough to comment on. I wonder if that applies to all law enforcement.

JT

 

[alexp]

The Law

27 C.F.R. § 478.134 Sale of firearms to law enforcement officers.
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms


Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart H—Records


Browse Previous


§ 478.134 Sale of firearms to law enforcement officers.
(a) Law enforcement officers purchasing firearms for official use who provide the licensee with a certification on agency letterhead, signed by a person in authority within the agency (other than the officer purchasing the firearm), stating that the officer will use the firearm in official duties and that a records check reveals that the purchasing officer has no convictions for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence are not required to complete Form 4473 or Form 5300.35. The law enforcement officer purchasing the firearm may purchase a firearm from a licensee in another State, regardless of where the officer resides or where the agency is located.

(b)(1) The following individuals are considered to have sufficient authority to certify that law enforcement officers purchasing firearms will use the firearms in the performance of official duties:

(i) In a city or county police department, the director of public safety or the chief or commissioner of police.

(ii) In a sheriff's office, the sheriff.

(iii) In a State police or highway patrol department, the superintendent or the supervisor in charge of the office to which the State officer or employee is assigned.

(iv) In Federal law enforcement offices, the supervisor in charge of the office to which the Federal officer or employee is assigned.

(2) An individual signing on behalf of the person in authority is acceptable, provided there is a proper delegation of authority.

(c) Licensees are not required to prepare a Form 4473 or Form 5300.35 covering sales of firearm made in accordance with paragraph (a) of this section to law enforcement officers for official use. However, disposition to the officer must be entered into the licensee's permanent records, and the certification letter must be retained in the licensee's files.

[T.D. ATF–401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]

 

[Bubbles]

I do not know if he was an undercover officer or not, but I do remember he did not put down his address on the form.
He put the Sheriff's Dept. address instead. It was also the address on his driver's license. He was asked to talk to the person from the State Police answering the call.

My friend was then given the phone back for the approval number.

Just thought it was different enough to comment on. I wonder if that applies to all law enforcement.

No it does not. We have many folks who work in local, state, and federal LE who are customers. All must fill out the 4473 when buying a personal firearm.

One of them is regularly delayed, which drives him nuts. We tease him about it every time.

 

[leadcounsel]

I personally think that law enforement agents SHOULD go through the same steps. Otherwise they easily build this "above the law" syndrome that we always see when you see a cop speeding, going through reds, not using turn signals, etc. Drives me nuts.

 

[alexp]

Duty Weapon

Bubbles

That is unless it is a duty weapon per 27 CFR 478.134 described above. It seems it is open season on LEO on this site or is it my imagination

 

[Bubbles]

That is unless it is a duty weapon per 27 CFR 478.134 described above.

We sell those directly to the PD, who then issues them to the officer. The OP was asking about personal firearms.

 

[RDCL]

Girodin pretty much sums up my reason for calling it "silly". The main purpose of the NICS is to keep bad guys from buying guns.....in theory.

....So, whats the point of subjecting such a man (or woman) through the backround check process when they are ALREADY LEGALLY armed as a requirement of their job/duty? Some of these folks even have legal access to full-auto depending on the situation.

All I'm saying, is that if I were an FBI or LEO I would'nt complain about my having to go through "the process"......but I'd feel rather ridiculous in having to do so.

 

[Rev. Chad]

How can someone not have their real address on their ID and the 4473 forms? That sounds fishy.

 

[41magsnub]

Cops are citizens just like the rest of us. There should be no special privileges for a cop that regular folks do not get. I'm all for this including the 4473 process, they should have all the same hassles we have.