Fear of firearms

[bearcreek]

The first order of business is to remind friends and family that the Second Amendment is still in the Constitution of the United States, contrary to what some elites would like us to believe.

And the Second Amendment was not put into the Constitution by the Founders merely to allow us to intimidate burglars. The right to keep and bear arms derives from our duty to retain the basic means necessary to defend our country, our liberty, and to resist tyranny, if necessary--something that is very difficult to do if the government has all the weapons.

This is not to say that defending against personal dangers was not an anticipated use for arms, particularly on the frontier. But these things are not the fundamental purpose of the Amendment.

Certainly it is true that the actual defense of our national borders is normally delegated to the professional military. But we, the people, are ultimately responsible for the defense of country and liberty, and the Second Amendment is crucial to our performance of that duty.

Excellent summation. I think this is a core problem in much of the gun owning community as well as the general population. Many have lost sight of the original point of the 2A and think they need to justify their weaponry based on it's usefulness for hunting or "self defense", meaning defense from criminal citizens. Those are only secondary benefits and I think that needs to be recognized more often.

As far as helping folks, particularly women, get over their fear of weapons, I think a big part of it is starting gently. By that I mean, don't hand her a 12 guage or .30-06 the first time out, don't get frustrated when she keeps putting the stock under her arm to aim, speak quietly, don't laugh etc. The other thing to remember is that most women don't do all that well learning this stuff from their husband or boyfriend, at least to start with. IMO, an all female beginner class is the way to go.

 

[bearcreek]

No, but you've expressed severely biased opinions about a tried and true SD/HD tool that is as effective today in those scenarios as ever. This shortsightedness would be reflected in your instruction and your reluctance to accept proven methods shows your are not that well informed to start with, i.e sub-par choice for a SD instructor. But, I guess, if you were the last firearm instructor in the world, you'd be better than nuttin'.......

Seriously man, lets stop rabbit trailing. This thread isn't about revolvers. I shouldn't have brought it up here. If you want to discuss this, start a thread about it. I'll probably comment on it.

 

[TwoFirstNames]

In my limited experience, getting those who are afraid of guns comfortable with them involves a lot of time and patience BEFORE they ever get near a gun. Work with them on their terms, and at their pace. Most of all, be firm about your beliefs, and respectful of theirs. Remember, no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
My wife has a very good friend who was completely afraid of the idea of a gun near her, in spite of a husband who liked them and would go out shooting whenever anyone would let him borrow a gun. My wife talked to her when the subject came up over the years. A few months ago she asked my wife and I to come over and teach her and her kids about the second amendment and gun safety. She even handled a couple of them that evening, though she looked like she was afraid they would bite her. At the end of the visit, we asked if she would like to go shooting sometime. She said yes. It hasn't happened yet, but, even if it never does, she isn't afraid of guns anymore, at least not as much.
That is only one story, but I doubt it is very unique.

 

[yugorpk]

But, I guess, if you were the last firearm instructor in the world, you'd be better than nuttin'.......

Theres always the blowhards at the gun shop. They are as well informed. I know if I felt the need to go to gun training and and "instructor" starting spewing off about how inferior the revolver was to the auto loader I'd pack my stuff up, walk out the door and back charge my credit card post haste. If I want to listen to an idiot who knows nothing about guns I can think of better places to hang out.


If theres still a fight going after 5 rounds of buffalo bore .357 I'm in a battle, not a gun fight.

 

[bearcreek]

Theres always the blowhards at the gun shop. They are as well informed. I know if I felt the need to go to gun training and and "instructor" starting spewing off about how inferior the revolver was to the auto loader I'd pack my stuff up, walk out the door and back charge my credit card post haste. If I want to listen to an idiot who knows nothing about guns I can think of better places to hang out.


If theres still a fight going after 5 rounds of buffalo bore .357 I'm in a battle, not a gun fight.

Are we still on this ridiculous revolver argument? What does this post have to do with the OP?

 

[AR-15Nutt]

i have NEVER understood the fear of firearms, it is like fearing a hammer, saw, file or any hand held TOOL. :banghead:

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by buck460XVR:

Ever heard the phrase “Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach”?

Trite old expression, and certainly completely meaningless when it comes to the carrying, drawing, presentation, and use of firearms for defensive purposes.

 

[MEHavey]

Are we still on this ridiculous revolver argument?
What does this post have to do with the OP?

Everything (in my humble experience.

As compared to the automatic, the revolver for the uninitiated/fearful...

- Has everything that moves exposed
- Parts movements/rotations/hammerfall are literally slow-motion/easily followed
- Hammer is large/accessible and easily controllable in de-cocking
- Double action requires relatively larger forces/longer movement before weapon is "armed"
- No mucking around with a "safety"
- No split-second/can't-see-it "magic" in its firing cycle.

Now the cognoscenti & illuminati may scoff at this... but beginning shooters find it very comforting.

 

[Kleanbore]

As long as we're on a tangent,

As compared to the automatic, the revolver for the uninitiated/fearful...

- Has everything that moves exposed--NOPE!
- Parts movements/rotations/hammerfall are literally slow-motion/easily followed
- Hammer is large/accessible and easily controllable in de-cocking--IF ONE DOES HAVE A HAMMER, ONE SHJOULD NOT BE COCKING IT IN A DEFENSIVE SITUATION
- Double action requires relatively larger forces/longer movement before weapon is "armed"--ALSO TRUE WITH MANY SEMIAUTOS
- No mucking around with a "safety"--TRUE WITH MOST SEMIAUTOS, TOO
- No split-second/can't-see-it "magic" in its firing cycle.

 

[Morrey]

To qualify my initial statement...."our personal safety is at an all time high risk". I am the owner and publisher of a newspaper in coastal SC. Weekly I publish county arrest records and the alleged crime for which they have been charged. 25 years ago it was not nearly as commonplace as it is today for murders to take place during home invasions. Armed robbery is up well over what it was 25 years ago in our county. Keep in mind we may have higher unemployment, more drug users, etc, than in your neck of the woods. But if my home is broken into and a family member is murdered, I could care less about the fact crime may be down 3,000 miles across the country from me. Just saying.....

 

[oneounceload]

Guys, this thread isn't about revolvers vs. semi autos.

Of course it is - you said this:

We've considered limiting or prohibiting revolvers in the class that I teach because we consider them to be an antiquated, sub par choice for a carry gun.

Who is this "WE"? You are grossly uninformed

 

[Theohazard]

To qualify my initial statement...."our personal safety is at an all time high risk". I am the owner and publisher of a newspaper in coastal SC. Weekly I publish county arrest records and the alleged crime for which they have been charged. 25 years ago it was not nearly as commonplace as it is today for murders to take place during home invasions. Armed robbery is up well over what it was 25 years ago in our county. Keep in mind we may have higher unemployment, more drug users, etc, than in your neck of the woods. But if my home is broken into and a family member is murdered, I could care less about the fact crime may be down 3,000 miles across the country from me. Just saying.....

I took the "our" in your original comment to mean "all of us"; as in "all of us Americans' personal safety is at an all-time-high risk". That's a very common misconception in the US today, but the opposite is actually true.

But I didn't realize you were talking specifically about your location, which appears to be going against the national trend of a plummeting violent crime rate.

 

[buck460XVR]

Trite old expression, and certainly completely meaningless when it comes to the carrying, drawing, presentation, and use of firearms for defensive purposes.

Maybe trite, but it addresses those who try to impress others with words and not by actual facts. 10 years ago, one would be hard pressed to find a local firearm training facility. Now they are as common as Starbucks. My experience is, while there are some very good ones out there, there are many where the staff knows little more than the students they are claiming to teach, nor do they want to deviate from their lesson plan. Many of these plans consist of drills that call for the use of more than 5 rounds before a reload. Thus it's easier to restrict the use of firearms that only hold 5 rounds(like j-frame revolvers) than it is to change or adapt the drill.

Are we still on this ridiculous revolver argument? What does this post have to do with the OP?

Then why did you make the mention of revolvers in that argumentative way if you did not want others to respond? It was fine for you to insult the choice of others for SD, but now that you are the focus of ridicule, we need to change the subject. Kinda a "do as I say, not as I do" kinda thing, eh?

This is about reducing the fear of firearms. But some insist we need to take that frail soccer mom, who has never shot a firearm before, only wants to defend herself from a car jacking on the way to practice and we tell her she needs a double stack, high capacity handgun and two fully loaded spare mags, because odds are, she's gonna end up in a extended gun-fight between multiple assailants, just because she's carrying. Yep, that oughtta make her feel better.

 

[MEHavey]

- Has everything that moves exposed--NOPE!- Parts movements/rotations/hammerfall are literally slow-motion/easily followed
- Hammer is large/accessible and easily controllable in de-cocking--IF ONE DOES HAVE A HAMMER, ONE SHJOULD NOT BE COCKING IT IN A DEFENSIVE SITUATION
- Double action requires relatively larger forces/longer movement before weapon is "armed"--ALSO TRUE WITH MANY SEMIAUTOS
- No mucking around with a "safety"--TRUE WITH MOST SEMIAUTOS, TOO- No split-second/can't-see-it "magic" in its firing cycle.

Well... I have to disagree w/ about everything in red.
Especially when the issue is first introducing the concept of a handgun to the uninitiated/fearful.
and particularly as most semi autos of old are relatively hair-triggered after first cycle.**
I've seen the downside of ignoring these first-step aspects too often on the range.



** The introduction of the Glock started the rush to newer striker-fire actions,
but still everything moving remains hidden/under the surface.
Women in particular like to "see things move" upon the first intro.
Afterwards, of course, they can't get enough of the full-up 1911.
But that's afterwards.

 

[230RN]

I agree that fear of firearms may appear to be as "visceral," as a fear of snakes or spiders, and is just as hard to overcome.

Most of my relatives are back in New York City, and after I had moved out here (Colorado) in the early sixties and become somewhat of a "gun nut," if you will, I had occasion to fly back to New York in the early 80s. This was before airport security was a big deal, as it is today. As it happened, my luggage got lost and without thinking, I mentioned to my niece that I was concerned about the gun packed away in it. Her reaction was similar to if I had waved a snake in her face. The modern expression to describe it would be "Ewww!"

LSS, the luggage ended up in Boston and I recovered it and the gun a week after I had returned to Colorado. No big deal, back then.

But did I learn my lesson? No. Even today, with firearms being sort of "second nature" to me, I have casually mentioned gun-related activities to some of my relatives back east, and that kind of dampened our relationships because of it.

The latest instance of that was with my nephew, with whom I was having a lively e-mail chat correspondence. He was proud of how his son had recently graduated from the New York City Police Academy, and without thinking, I said that was great, if he got out here, we could go to the range. His reaction was similar to my neice's. a figurative "Ewwww!" and "You've got a gun?"

Yeah, like several, I told him, and that I legally carried one all the time.

That was shocking to him.

LSS again, he has not responded to my e-mails since.

So that aversion can be "visceral-like," if you will, whether it's caused by some kind of inherent mental makeup or by being raised in a thoroughly anti-gun environment, or both. But I reckon it can be overcome by a gradual and non-threatening exposure.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Teachu2]

I often take prospective shooters to the range for a bit of first-hand experience. We start at the kitchen table, with the basics of firearm safety. When they are up to speed on those, we will examine and safely handle several firearms. If their main interest is handguns, we will then proceed to my range in the back yard. I will show them how to load a handgun that they find interesting, then place it on a pad on the table, pointed safely downrange. Then I step back and stare silently at the loaded gun. After a short time, the student will ask what we are doing. I tell them "Waiting for the gun to 'Go off'". Sometimes we stand there for quite a while before they realize that the gun won't fire itself. This leads to a moment of clarity - someone, somewhere, sometime has led them to an unfounded conclusion.

I generally let beginners fire any gun I own that interests them. I often demonstrate before they shoot it, then often start them off with a single round. Baby steps build confidence, and if they get excited and lapse on the safety rules.....well, it's a much calmer discussion if they have already fired their one round. We progress as they are ready. As Terry said, "a gradual and non-threatening exposure".

 

[chris in va]

My longtime GF was raised in NJ. I could stop there and rest my case, but her ex husband pointed a gun at her during an argument years ago so naturally she was not on board with my pursuit of a CWP.

A situation arose where her young daughter almost got kidnapped right in front of us. After that, she saw the value of something to effectively prevent her family from being harmed.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MEHavey:

Well... I have to disagree w/ about everything in red.

• The sear, bolt, hammer bock, bolt plunger, mainspring, rebound slide and spring, and hand of a doublle action revolver, along with few other parts, are internal
• No knowledgeable expert on use of force law recommends cockin a DA revolvr in a useof force situation except in rare instances requiring great precesion, and in those situations, there is considerable added risk in doing so
• While few if any semiautos have trigger pulls as difficult as J-Frames and Webley revolvers, strong springs can be installed in striker fired and double action pistols if desired
• Real safeties are a rarity on semi autos these days. Mine has one, but it is a grip safety that requires no "mucking around"
  

 

[MEHavey]

You aren't getting the point.
The women do.
And they are the audience when stepping up to the line.

I lay the Glock 36 (having everything you point above) on the table,
along side the S&W Model-19. I operate both in front of them to start.
and ask which they want to start with...

They pick Model-19 every time.
and find the fine print to be irrelevant.

 

[Kleanbore]

I lay the Glock 36 (having everything you point above) on the table,
along side the S&W Model-19. I operate both in front of them to start.
and ask which they want to start with...

They pick Model-19 every time.

As one would expect.

 

[Midwest]

I know a couple who used to live in NJ and never thought about getting a gun. But they moved to PA out in the country and it would be a 1/2 an hour for the police to respond. So they decided to get a shotgun for self defense purposes. The wife said she is OK with that but no handguns. At least they are armed and, I guess that is all that really matters.
.

 

[bearcreek]

Who is this "WE"? You are grossly uninformed

I guess I'll leave it to the mods to decide if we're getting off on a tangent too much. We is my brother and I, who run the class. Grossly uninformed about what?

 

[bearcreek]

Then why did you make the mention of revolvers in that argumentative way if you did not want others to respond? It was fine for you to insult the choice of others for SD, but now that you are the focus of ridicule, we need to change the subject. Kinda a "do as I say, not as I do" kinda thing, eh?

I already said why. It was the mischievous streak in me that couldn't resist since that always gets a rise out of people.

This is about reducing the fear of firearms. But some insist we need to take that frail soccer mom, who has never shot a firearm before, only wants to defend herself from a car jacking on the way to practice and we tell her she needs a double stack, high capacity handgun and two fully loaded spare mags, because odds are, she's gonna end up in a extended gun-fight between multiple assailants, just because she's carrying. Yep, that oughtta make her feel better.

I'm not sure if this was addressed at me or not. I never said anything about a double stack. high capacity handgun, although I do generally carry a double stack with a standard capacity magazine. I mentioned reloads and the flatter profile of semi autos, which obviously is more pronounced in a single rather than double stack. My opinion based on research and a fair bit of training experience, (admittedly, not real world) is that there are very few good reasons for a person to carry a revolver.

 

[oneounceload]

Grossly uninformed about what?

Seriously? read your first post about revolvers.........

 

[ku4hx]

My wife had a irrational fear of guns, but at my insistence she learned basic safety, proper handling and shooting techniques for the one gun I keep at hand at all times ... a Glock 23. She understood the logic so she did as I asked. Then one day when she was home alone on her day off, 11:00AM to be exact, the front door was taken out of the frame by an intruder.

As trite as it may sound, her [rudimentary] gun training took over and she chased the guy off. She is now one of the strongest pro gun people I know, she all by herself found that brand of semi-auto she prefers, practices often, is licensed to carry, sweeps up my empties for me, joined the NRA and is now what I'd classify as a very competent shooter.

Necessity, in all its various forms, is indeed the mother of invention.