Federal Gun Free Zone Question

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leadaddict

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I'm fairly new to concealed carry and haven't done much traveling since getting it, but now that we have some out of state trips coming up I've been doing my homework to be sure I carry within the laws of each state.

I've used handgunlaw.us a lot. What a great site! But my question comes from the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act. I didn't realize that the exception for a licensed gun owner only applied if the license was issued by the state you are currently in. A license simply honored by that state doesn't cut it; only if it is issued by that state.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

Is this still current information? If so that severely limits any benefits of reciprocity between states. Traveling through almost any populated area while carrying would be virtually impossible with committing a "Class 4 Felony". The only out I see is the ignorance clause, "individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone." How could I possibly know where the schools are until it is too late? But even that MAY only work if you don't the area.

I'm curious how you carry out of state and stay in compliance with this law. It seems almost impossible for most normal travel.
 
Is this still current information? If so that severely limits any benefits of reciprocity between states. Traveling through almost any populated area while carrying would be virtually impossible with committing a "Class 4 Felony". The only out I see is the ignorance clause, "individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone." How could I possibly know where the schools are until it is too late? But even that MAY only work if you don't the area.

I'm curious how you carry out of state and stay in compliance with this law. It seems almost impossible for most normal travel.

thats about it.....

i mean, its kind of hard to use that defense if you are found with a gun IN the actual school....or are withing direct eye sight of the school...

but if you are on the outskirts(on or within 1000') of a nondescript brick building....which happens to be a school.......or are a block or so away from a school in a city.......chances are you are going to be alright.

pretty much, unless the officer believe it is your intention to go on/into the direct actual school area.....he most likely wont take it into account.
 
It is current information. The traveler's defense here would be "...at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe..." As you said, if you're unfamiliar with the area, and you're driving down the street and pass a school, that's hardly your fault.

It is a very bad law.
 
I have often wondered if the ban includes carrying a weapon while walking by the school on the sidewalk.

Michael
 
It says, "Within 1,000 feet of ..."

Pretty much covers the sidewalk, the street, and anywhere else that isn't one of the exceptions mentioned in the law.
 
It says, "Within 1,000 feet of ..."

Pretty much covers the sidewalk, the street, and anywhere else that isn't one of the exceptions mentioned in the law.
__________________
-- Sam
Interesting, thats the way I read it too. Trouble is I walk every evening and always carry. In this small rural town I live in every sidewalk is within 1000 feet of the school. Its impossible to walk from my house to the only store in town without being inside that 1000 foot limit. You are exempted from this when you drive by the school but not when you walk by?

Michael
 
In general, local law enforcement does not enforce federal laws except in conjunction with federal officers, and state courts have no jurisdiction over federal offenses.
 
Trouble is I walk every evening and always carry. In this small rural town I live in every sidewalk is within 1000 feet of the school. Its impossible to walk from my house to the only store in town without being inside that 1000 foot limit.
Yes. But if you have a license or permit to carry in your state, and that license meets the requirements (it has a mandated background check requirement to issue), then you should be safe.

You are exempted from this when you drive by the school but not when you walk by?
No. You are not exempted when you drive by a school -- unless the gun is unloaded and locked in a lock box or locking rack.
 
It is a very bad law.
- That it is.

Another question... Being a federal law do local/state law enforcement normally have any right to arrest you because of it? I would have thought so, but given how some states are trying to enforce certain immigration laws and have been told not to by the feds, I'm not sure anymore. - Thanks for all the help.
 
I have talked with local cops that weren't even aware of the federal law. Our main highway runs right past our local middle/high school. If this law were being enforced, the local leos could arrest hundreds of hunters on the opening day of deer season. Many, many of our hunters around here legally transport their rifles uncased, ammo handy, or even magazine loaded. The law is being broken, but no one cares.

I think in most cases charges under this law are pressed as 'add ons' to other federal drug charges. Our federal courts are too busy for anything much smaller. You do, of course, always run a small risk under this law when traveling out of state.
 
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However small the risk, there is something unsettling about the possibility! :uhoh:

Sad that a law makes so many eligle for a felony while doing everything they can to obey the laws. :banghead:
 
As mentioned above, it would require an arrest by a federal agent. I've never heard of a GFSZA prosecution that wasn't an add-on charge to other charges (usually federal drug charges). It's not something I worry too much about when carrying in states that honor a Texas CHL.

I think federal prosecutors are reluctant to press these charges because they are ripe for a constitutional challenge--both on Commerce Clause grounds (the law has already been stuck down by SCOTUS once, in US v. Lopez), and, post-Heller, on Second Amendment grounds as well. A prosecution of someone for carrying on a non-resident license within 1000ft of a school is as perfect a test case as I can think of for the right to bear arms in public, a right which has yet to be recognized by the federal courts.
 
GregAW said:
Another question... Being a federal law do local/state law enforcement normally have any right to arrest you because of it?

No. Local/state law enforcement cannot arrest you for violating a Federal law that is not codified in State law. HOWEVER, they can DETAIN you for the Federal violation and turn you over to Federal law enforcement and swear to charges against you, resulting in your arrest. The result is still the same, it just takes an extra step t get there.
 
In my state, Kansas, there is the 1000' zone for ban on guns around schools. In my class, they said with a CCW, you are OK within that 1000', such as walking down the sidewalk, picking your kid up at school out front, etc. You are even good to go in the school, if there is no 'no gun' sign posted on the buidlings entrance. However, all our schools are posted.

We even discussed ball games at the football stadiums, which is on our highschool's property well within the 1000' zone. There is an entrance where you pay to get in, it's fenced all around and up to this entrance, the entrance is posted no guns. However, it was pointed out by the Local PD that put on the training that there is an entrance in the fence that is generally open from half time on where no sign is posted, they said a person could go in that entrance without breaking the law.
 
Just early this morning I added a Federal GFSZ Section to the USA page at www.handgunlaw..us
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/usa.pdf

Here is what I have put. Some of the formatting and links don't show up. There is a link to the law and to the BATF Letter. I can't put the answer to every question that someone could have but give you a good basis to start a more through investigation.

Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 44
§ 921. Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter—

(25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 44
§ 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(q) (1) The Congress finds and declares that—
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;

(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal
gangs;

(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary [3] the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;

(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;

(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;

(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;

(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;

(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves—even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and

(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the
Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation’s schools by enactment of this subsection.

(2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that
otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable
cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

(3) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with
Reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved
in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school
zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from
enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

BATF Letter on School Zones

Note: As you can see by the law and the BATF Letter if you come within 1000 foot of any school and you do not have a permit/license issued by the state that school is located in you are in violation of the law. The Law states Private Schools. From all that I can find out Home Schools would also qualify as a Private School. The law also states:
“knowingly possess or discharge a firearm in a place that the individual knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a school zone,”

That “Knowingly” would most likely protect you from the home school provision. But never forget you can be charged and given your day in court to prove you didn’t know or didn’t have reasonable cause to believe you were within a school zone. There is no way anyone can stay within the law if outside their state of residence unless they have a permit/license issued from the state they are in. Even if Home Schools were not included it would still be impossible unless you kept the firearm unloaded and secured in your vehicle at all times.

The only good thing I can say about this law is I have not read where anyone has been charged with just carrying a firearm within 1000 foot of a school. This law is being applied as an add on charge for people who are charged with another crime and are inside that 1000 foot school zone and have a firearm on them legally or not.

Do read the whole law. If you live within a school zone you can have a firearm on your property and can transport it in and out of the school zone if unloaded and stowed in a vehicle or case.
 
The better thing to know is the local and state law...they are what really count.

Secondly, state and Local LE do not enforce federal law. Federal law enforcement does. Just like federal law enforcement does not enforce local law. Not their jusristiction.

If they would charge someone under this law, and that someone wanted to fight it, I'd bet this law would end up in the unconstitutional dump just like their first even more stupid version did. The feds have no business trying to legislate things like this.
 
Smalls, The Fed law States:

if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

So it looks like to me (I am not an Attorney) anyone carrying under Constitutional Carry or openly without a permit/license issued by the state you are in you would not meet the requirements. If you came within 1000 foot of a school as defined in the law you would be in violation of the law. Now after you are arrested and they find out you are qualified would they drop the charges? It states "To Receive the License." Leave it up to the politicians to really screw things up.
 
What about states where a permit is not required to carry concealed? Or openly?
The federal law is set up with the intent to require anyone going near a school with a firearm to have been "checked up on" before hand to the extent of being issued some firearms permit by that state. "Constitutional Carry" is very much the opposite of that ("don't need no checkin' up on!") and thus cannot meet the intent of the law.

At least one of the "Constitutional Carry" states will issue their citizens a permit if the citizen so desires, though it isn't strictly require for most areas, and that would meet the requirements of the GFSZA.
 
Out of State License

The law states "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located". To me the key here is the word "Licensed". It does not say the license must be issued by that state. If the state recognizes my out of state license then I am licensed to carry in that state under their laws, right?? So why would that cover school zones??
 
I'm not sure what you're saying here. "Licensed to do so by the State..." means LICENSED by the State. What else could possibly be meant by that but that the license is ISSUED by the state? Even if you don't personnally equate the terms, that's how the law is interpreted and applied.

If the state recognizes my out of state license then I am licensed to carry in that state under their laws, right??
No, you're stating two things that are related, but not the same. I hold permits or licenses to carry a firearm issued by UT and PA. I can carry a firearm in DE, VA, FL, etc. But I am NOT "licensed" by those states to do so. They've simply extended their recognition to include my licenses from other states.

So why would that cover school zones??
Why wouldn't it? Because the GFSZA is written in an unfortunate way, and includes the term "...by that state."
 
If you are issued a non resident permit then that state issued you a license....is that correct?
 
First, I am not trying to argue with anyone here. I just don't get it. Let me use an example. If I am driving in another state, they honor my drivers license. So I am licensed to drive in that state. Right so far?? So if another state accepts my carry permit I am licensed to carry in that state. The school zone law states "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located". It does not say "issued by that state". Maybe I am splitting to many hairs here and I am not a lawyer for sure. But it seems to me that this is a loophole. And no, I do not want to be a test case. :eek:
 
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