Federal judge rules Oregon’s tough new gun law is constitutional

What a horrible ruling
Yes it is and moot as Oregon Supreme Court already ruled twice against state's request to reverse Temporary Restraining Order granted by state circuit court to block Ballot Measure 114 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-13#post-12672640

While Federal court ruled in support of Ballot Measure 114 [And likely will be appealed to 9th Circuit], Temporary Restraining Order granted for state case Arnold v Brown (OR magazine ban/permit to purchase) supported by Oregon Supreme Court is still in place so no change for Oregonians wanting to purchase larger than 10 round capacity magazines - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-12#post-12549700
So yesterday's federal court ruling has no effect on status of larger than 10 round capacity magazine and permit to purchase scheme. (And likely be appealed to the 9th Circuit where Duncan v Bonta, CA's magazine ban case waiting to be ruled by judge Benitez is headed also)

None.
 
Well, anyone delighted that Scotus remanded https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/duncan-v-bonta/. So far it's been crickets. Scotus could have decided the issue but decided to futz around with legal weeds of dominance.

It's not clear if the votes to void bans actually exist in Scotus given the views that Roberts and Kavanaugh are weak. Who is to know?
 
It has all the usual gun ban distortions of what Heller and Bruen actually said, that "historical tradition" includes recent history instead of just the time of the founding and that "in common use" means "only for self defense" instead of "in common use for lawful purposes", which includes ALL lawful purposes. Just another stalling tactic.
 
It's not clear if the votes to void bans actually exist in Scotus given the views that Roberts and Kavanaugh are weak. Who is to know?
Justice Kavanaugh wrote his dissent in Heller II arguing that "modern" magazine fed semi-auto rifles are protected by the Second Amendment. While he voted with the majority for Bruen ruling, he did opine that states could regulate - https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-843_7j80.pdf

I join the Court’s opinion, and I write separately to underscore two important points about the limits of the Court’s decision. First, the Court’s decision does not prohibit States from imposing licensing requirements for carrying a handgun for self-defense. In particular, the Court’s decision does not affect the existing licensing regimes—known as “shall-issue” regimes—that are employed in 43 States.

The Court’s decision addresses only the unusual discretionary licensing regimes, known as “may-issue” regimes, that are employed by 6 States including New York ... because it grants open-ended discretion to licensing officials and authorizes licenses only for those applicants who can show some special need apart from self-defense ... in effect deny the right to carry handguns for self-defense to many “ordinary, law-abiding citizens.”

... Second, as Heller and McDonald established and the Court today again explains, the Second Amendment “is neither a regulatory straightjacket nor a regulatory blank check.” Properly interpreted, the Second Amendment allows a “variety” of gun regulations.​

Chief justice Roberts opined with the majority for Bruen ruling which eliminated the "two step" approach used for decades and now mandated "text and history" approach that requires existence of historic tradition analogue by the 1791 ratification of Bill of Rights for any regulation to be considered constitutional.

At first I too was dismayed that Supreme Court remanded various 2A cases back down for reconsideration factoring Bruen mandate of "text and history" approach only. But having followed various 2A cases like Duncan and Miller, starting to appreciate why these cases were remanded down instead of Supreme Court ruling on them.

Perhaps here's why.

When 9th Circuit also remanded Miller (AW ban) and Duncan (Magazine ban) back down to the district court, judge Benitez ordered CA to provide evidence that "identifies the best historical regulation that is a proper analogue and relevantly similar to a statewide prohibition on possession of a firearm with listed features" for the Miller case. Judge Benitez also ordered CA provide historical evidence of "statewide prohibition on possession of an ammunition device or a limit on an amount of ammunition for the Duncan case.

CA in collaboration of plaintiff's "clarification" comments, presented a spreadsheet listing all the regulations that existed before and after the 1791 signing of the BOR ratification but historical analogues to AW and magazine ban did not exist as they were relatively recent regulations - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-11#post-12528071

So cases having been remanded back down, if/when they return back to the Supreme Court for final ruling as highest court in the nation, would have demonstrated (Shown reconsideration work of looking for historic tradition analogues) whether such analogues to regulations being challenged existed.

Interestingly, arguments for Harrel v Raoul (IL AW/magazine ban) consolidated with Langley v Kelly, Accuracy Firearms v Pritzker and Barnett v. Raoul were made recently to the 7th Circuit after securing preliminary injunction against PICA.

During the arguments, following key points were made - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-13#post-12669295
  • Attorney argues that popular AR15 is linear [modernized] descendant of popular firearms used in colonial days that were "in common use" and at 1:04:30, uses printing press and [modernized computer/tablet] ipad as linear descendant example.
  • At 1:05:10, attorney argues progression of firearm development and points out bolt action rifles used for world wars are immensely evolved firearms compared to muskets used by the colonials and argued the court would not question whether [modern] bolt action rifles are protected by the Second Amendment.
  • At 1:06:00, discussion ensues distinguishing "ban" from "regulation" and argument made that Second Amendment post Bruen does not allow legislature to "ban" linear descendants of arms used by the colonials.
  • At 1:08:00, Caetano v Mass mentioned justice Alito stated 200,000 stun guns were "in common use" and semi-auto rifles and magazines state is trying to ban is well beyond that number in "tens of millions" and used for "lawful purposes including self defense along with competition and hunting".
Probably the best question asked and point made came from the judge who asked whether the Winchester lever action is protected under the Second Amendment to the silence of state's attorney - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-13#post-12669936

At 1:23:00, judge asks if the Winchester lever action is protected under the Second Amendment and points out that the lever action was not the same as muzzle loading muskets colonials used but the lever action was in common use and was the AR15 of the pioneering days.
So communication devices like computers/cellphones are popular and in common use linear "modern" types of printing press used for free speech protected under the First Amendment that did not exist during colonial days and similarly, magazine fed Winchester lever action and magazine fed semi-auto AR-15 are "modern" types of muskets used for self defense/lawful purposes protected under the Second Amendment that did not exist during colonial days as Second Amendment is not a "second class right" to First Amendment.

Now I am starting to appreciate Supreme Court remanding these 2A cases back down as by the time they reach the Supreme Court again, very thorough study/review would have taken place to affirm Bruen decision of "text and history" and Heller/Caetano of "modern" types of arms.
 
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If “large capacity” magazines aren’t in common use for self-defense then why do police officers carry them?
Very good point that is gaining more and more judicial traction.

With many of these ban often exempting law enforcement, such as CA handgun roster banning "modern" models of handguns with improvements/enhancements that law enforcement uses, same argument can be made.

Why are law enforcement allowed to use these "modern" types of arms when law abiding citizens are not?

And justice Thomas eloquently stated in Bruen that the Second Amendment is not a "second class right" ... meaning same rule as applies to the First Amendment. So is law enforcement allowed "modern" forms of communication like email/text/cellphone/smartphone, etc. but not the law abiding citizens? Of course not.

So, why are law abiding citizens treated different when it comes to Second Amendment to not be allowed "modern" types of arms?
 
Two things - one would argue that the police are more likely to enter into gun fights that are more intense.
Second, that is because we see on gun forums, the 5 is enough crowd arguing that the average gun fight is 3,3,3 and thus if you carry more you are a nutso commando. The 5 is enough mantra - supplied by some in the gun world - has been picked up in cases like this to argue for bans. There is also academic (oh, well) research that suggests higher cap mags lead to more hurt in rampages. It is supposedly easier to charge the shooter during reloads. Actually that has happened.

The focus on SD as compared to the defense against tyranny (which would entail more substantial firearms) leads to argue for the 5 is enough, single or two muggers paradigm. The latter flee at the sight of a gun, thus the more dangerous high cap mags aren't needed.

We brought this on ourselves, IMHO. My revolver has served me well - OK, then lets ban the rampage, nutso guns!!

To repeat myself, Scotus was idiotic to remand. None of their legal custom, precedents, need to make the circuits do their job mean squat when basic rights are/were deprived and they could have fixed it. I suspect the votes weren't there. I also fume at the apologists who argue that the remand or failure to support the TROs was brilliant legal maneuvering.
 
We brought this on ourselves, IMHO.

To repeat myself, Scotus was idiotic to remand. None of their legal custom, precedents, need to make the circuits do their job mean squat when basic rights are/were deprived and they could have fixed it. I suspect the votes weren't there. I also fume at the apologists who argue that the remand or failure to support the TROs was brilliant legal maneuvering.
Well, IMHO, it's actually "We the People" who did this. ;)

Had "We the People" elected Hillary in 2016 as POTUS, justices Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett would have never been nominated to the Supreme Court and Bruen ruling would have ended up very differently and we would not even be having the discussion of 2A cases being remanded back down post Bruen. :p

"We the People" as framed by the founders did all this to "self govern" not by majority mob rule to impose on the rights/liberties of the minority but by Constitution/BOR to protect the rights of the minorities. Just as Supreme Court ruled to protect rights for the slaves and women in free speech and voting, so will Supreme Court also rule to protect rights for the minority gun owners in self defense/lawful use of arms.

And now we get to witness the separation of government powers with judicial branch being the check and balance to legislative and executive branches as the final rule on what is constitutional. :)

Yes, "We the People" did this.
 
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Another idiot masquerading as a Judge.

BTW, isn't Oregon a class III state? I know they at least USED to be. Clint Smith moved thunder ranch up there a few years back. Guess he should have stayed in Texas.
 
Remanding is good strategy for a few reasons.

First, the time and resources of SCOTUS are very limited. Shifting the burden back to the court that erred takes some of the burden off SCOTUS.

Second, it's training for the inferior court. Do it over until you get it right.

Finally, if the inferior court is obstinate in their error, SCOTUS always has the option of directly taking up the case.

As satisfying as a direct smack down would be, grant, vacate, and remand is a common way of handling error.

And yes, it's a very poorly reasoned decision.
 
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Second, it's training for the inferior court. Do it over until you get it right.

Do you realize how ridiculous that is? These are established judges who know exactly what they are doing.

The burden - they have time to take yacht trips. The decision could be written as:

Due to the principles in the Bruen case - we find for the plantiffs and strike down the laws and restrictions as unconstitutional. End of story.

In the mean time, rights are denied for years. A common way of handling a rights deprivation doesn't fly anymore. Just more judicial custom BS for a lack of really acting with alacrity.

I don't buy it. They dropped the ball as they live in a judicial world of weeds as compared to acting when they could for our rights. Make all the excuses yet again.
 
One thing I forgot to mention. There is good reason to question the strength of Kavanaugh, esp. and Roberts somewhat. Clarence and Alito aren't getting any younger. They are in the range of just dropping dead. Despite one's politics, Clarence's behavior may get him out of office. With Biden as President and probably re-elected (if Trump is the candidate - sorry for the politics), Bruen and Heller could be easily overturned and the historical rule wiped out as ridiculous. Already, lower court justices and scholars have pointed out problems with the doctrine. That would thus lower the chances of any relief on state AWB, mag bans and carry bans that are being passed in some states. Stare decisis is a dead letter nowadays.

That's why the common custom, schooling the lower courts is just plain stupid from a defending the RKBA point of view rather than some judicial dominance game. The dominance play might just turn on Scotus, given a personnel change.

In Heller's first days, folks thought it would lead to a radical abolition of so many other laws and restrictions. For the most part, it didn't happen. Scalia and Clarence were left just writing dissents and fuming. That Clarence doesn't see the risk of taking his own sweet time - well, enough on that.
 
Already, lower court justices and scholars have pointed out problems with the doctrine.
I don't believe we have a judicial branch where the lower courts tell the Supreme Court how to rule rather the Supreme Court mandating the lower courts to comply. ;)

I am not a lawyer so someone correct me if I have this wrong.

Bruen and Heller could be easily overturned and the historical rule wiped out as ridiculous.
Supreme Court and the country already went through this exercise with the First Amendment. As more and more states passed unconstitutional laws, they got sued and the Supreme Court kept ruling them unconstitutional. Eventually, permanent enforcement came the way of federal/state laws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...eme_Court_cases_involving_the_First_Amendment

And since the Second Amendment is not a "second class right", Supreme Court will continue ruling the same for Second Amendment cases until permanent enforcement come the way of federal/state laws.

When? That depends on "We the People".

Clarence and Alito aren't getting any younger. They are in the range of just dropping dead.
That is true and if "We the People" elect anti-2A executives and legislators enough election cycles to replace them with anti-2A justices, then "We the People" would have spoken (Just like in 2016) and this nation will be "self governed" and ruled by justices nominated by "We the People" ... Sad but true.

But that hasn't happened and the current Supreme Court bench will likely keep on ruling pro-2A until they are replaced to be the minority. That's why the anti-2A state legislators and governors are furiously passing and signing unconstitutional anti-2A laws and being sued, just like for the First Amendment.

Long live the Republic.
 
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Well, anyone delighted that Scotus remanded https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/duncan-v-bonta/. So far it's been crickets. Scotus could have decided the issue but decided to futz around with legal weeds of dominance.

It's not clear if the votes to void bans actually exist in Scotus given the views that Roberts and Kavanaugh are weak. Who is to know?

I'm hoping that's not going to become a new strategy/tactic of the whiffly members of SCOTUS, that is:

Recommending that a case be remanded to a lower court to avoid doing the job they're paid for.

My recollection and understanding is that's what happened in the 1930s Miller case on the constitutionality of part of the NFA 34 law. SInce there was no oral presentation by the plaintiff's lawyer, they remanded it back to the lower court for review, and the lower court did zero, leaving the 1934 National Firearms Act status quo.

That's the way I understood it, someone correct me in substance.

If that's going to be a consistently cowardly copout by the U.S. Supreme Court, one should begin to wonder if they're cheating us on their pay and benefits.

"Ees no my yob!"

"¡ Si, asi es !"

Terry, 230RN
 
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That doesn't mean she's impervious to the repetitive waves of propaganda we're all immersed in. She may be thinking she's only supporting the voice of the people*. Didn't she halfway touch on that?

Terry, 230RN

* Or the voice of the people of the densely-populated cities.
 
She is in the 9th............why is anyone here agast! It's gotta be the water on that side of the divide!
 
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