FFL is trying to steal my father in laws pistol

[cameroneod]

Here is the situation as I know it.

My father in law recently retired from the Alaska Railroad. He is in the process of moving all of his possessions to his brothers home in Montana where they will sit until he finds a place to live. He is not moving to Montana, he's just using it as a staging area.

He mailed his pistol to an FFL dealer in Montana through an FFL in Anchorage, but when he tried to pick up his pistol the dealer told him he could only release it to him if he is a Montana resident.

Now the dealer is telling him that if he doesn't figure it out within thirty days, he is keeping the pistol.

 

[jelayne]

Guess he better get his drivers license updated to Montana really quick.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Did he fail the NICS check?

 

[jelayne]

What about getting it returned to sender?

 

[Sam1911]

Unfortunately, the dealer is at least partially right. No FFL dealer can ever transfer a handgun to a person who is NOT a resident of that state.

Your FIL should really, really have established what he was doing before sending that gun to a dealer.

The best thing to do would probably be for him to sell the gun to his brother. The dealer could legally transfer it to the brother as he's a MT resident.

Then, once your FIL knows what state he's living in, the brother can send, or bring in person, that gun to a dealer in your FIL's new home state and transfer it to him there.

(He could have shipped it to HIMSELF in care of his brother which would have saved SOOOOooo much hassle, but most folks don't know that that is legal.)

 

[Sam1911]

Guess he better get his drivers license updated to Montana really quick.

He isn't going to be a MT resident, so that won't work.

You don't need a driver's license to establish residency.

 

[cameroneod]

His impression is that the dealer is trying to make it as difficult as possible for him so that he can keep the gun after 30 days. The dealer told him that he wouldn't let his brother take possession and that he had to have a license from the state to pick it up. This is further complicated by the fact that my father in laws CDL is in Alaska, and its not exactly easy to swap that over, especially when he's not going to be living in the state.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Why not just transfer it to the brother?

 

[Redlg155]

I would pay for it to be shipped back to Alaska to your original dealer. If he refuses to do so, I would contact the Sheriff of the County and see if he would pay the dealer a freindly visit. If this fails, it would be time to press charges for theft.

1. You can prove the property is legally yours.
2. You can prove that you sent it to the dealer with the honest intention of conducting a legal transfer.
3. You can prove that the dealer intended to deprive you of goods/ property belonging to you. This is indicated by his refusal to ship the item back to the sender.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I don't believe it's legal for the dealer to simply keep the pistol. It wasn't transfered to the FFL via sale, just held in his possession for transfer. If the transfer isn't made, isn't the FFL legally obligated to return the firearm to it's point of origin?

He shouldn't simply be allowed to keep it and seel it as stock or transfer it to his personal collection.

 

[ny32182]

I'd have my brother go pick it up this time, and in the future I would not unnecessarily involve FFLs in my move.

 

[NavyLCDR]

FFL is trying to steal my father in laws pistol

Maybe you should read Federal law first:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

18 USC 922 (b)(3):

§ 922. Unlawful acts
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Cameroneod, can you explain to us how you expect the Montana dealer to deliver the pistol to your father-in-law who is not a Montana resident without violating Federal law?

 

[cameroneod]

The dealer told him specifically that he would not let his brother pick up the pistol because he wasnt on the paperwork. Also, Im not sure what shipping it back to AK would accomplish as he's not sure when he'll be back.

He's contacted the County Sheriff and she is supposed to get back with him today. This has got to be seriously aggravating for him considering he was just trying to comply with, what he thought was, the law.

 

[cameroneod]

Cameroneod, can you explain to us how you expect the Montana dealer to deliver the pistol to your father-in-law who is not a Montana resident without violating Federal law

Nope, I cant, but Im not in the business of complying with Federal law. The people who took my father in laws pistol, however, are. Last time I checked, theft is still illegal.

 

[ny32182]

Not sure what "paperwork" it is, but there has got to be a way to get his brother on it. "Sell the pistol" to his brother if need be. This can't be that hard.

I've sold/traded guns to people out of state numerous times, and the only "paperwork" regarding who could pick it up was an informal note about who could pick it up.

 

[doc2rn]

All he needs is a State ID card and a piece of mail with his sons address. He doesnt have to change his CDL. You can get a state ID card with a passport/birth certificate/SSN card etc..or any of the two pieces usually required to start work and a change of address form from the post office. Same thing happened when I moved here to Ohio but the FFL wasnt a jerk about it.

 

[Bozwell]

Where is he living now? Wherever that is, just have him get a license in that state and have the FFL ship it there. If he's living in Montana, get a license in Montana. From what I remember, all you need to establish residency in a location is a current desire to stay there indefinitely. That doesn't mean you won't move in the future or contemplate the possibility of moving in the future, but only that you currently plan to reside in that state with no fixed plans of moving at a certain time in the future. AFAIK, you aren't required to own land, lease a residence, have a job, or anything else in a state to be a resident.

 

[ZeroJunk]

because he wasnt on the paperwork

Is he saying the FFL in AK is telling him who he has to transfer it to and that it cannot be changed?

If he plans to keep it he is going to have to transfer it to somebody sooner or later.

 

[Bubbles]

Did your FIL call this dealer before shipping the gun to let him know what he planned to do? Because the dealer should have known there is no legal way for him to transfer the gun to your FIL until he becomes a MT resident. That's federal law, as already posted, and the dealer should have explained that to your FIL.

OTOH threatening to keep the gun for himself after 30 days isn't right either, and there's certainly no reason that the dealer can't transfer the gun to your FIL's brother, assuming that he is a MT resident and not a prohibited person. At that point though the brother can't give the gun to your FIL; he has to ship it to a dealer in your FIL's new state for transfer back to him.

FWIW this is why if I ever have to move, I'll turn everything except the guns over to the movers/shippers, and the guns, ammo, and safes will go in my truck.

 

[Danb1215]

Not much you can do with getting it transferred in Montana. In this case he's not trying to steal it, hes trying not to lose his FFL, as this transfer would unfortunately be illegal.
However if the dealer is unwilling to ship it back to Alaska at your FIL's expense then he is stealing it, same as if he took a torch to the safe.

My short answer: Try to have it shipped back to an FFL in Alaska so your FIL can get it down to the lower 48 another way.

 

[MachIVshooter]

but when he tried to pick up his pistol the dealer told him he could only release it to him if he is a Montana resident.

Correct. Which, as previously stated, his brother could fill out the form and take possession. It is not within The FFL's scope to deny that transaction, he's just being a persnickety jerk.

Now the dealer is telling him that if he doesn't figure it out within thirty days, he is keeping the pistol.

Unless your FIL signed a document that stipulates this condition, it would constitute theft.

 

[dogtown tom]

1. It's not theft because your father in law sent it to the Montana dealer willingly. It eventually may amount to unlawful conversion, but at present the Montana dealer has committed no crime.
2. The Montana dealer cannot transfer the handgun to your FIL as he is not a resident of Montana.
3. The Montana dealer cannot transfer it to another family member in Montana because it would be a straw purchase.

So............your father in laws options are:
1. Pay the Montana dealer to return the firearm to Alaska. The FIL can then ship the handgun via common carrier addressed to himself at the location he will be staying while in Montana.
2. Establish residency in Montana. He does not need a Montana DL, but would need a government issued photo ID (his Alaska DL) plus alternate government issued documents to show that he is a resident of Montana.

 

[Cosmoline]

I would pay for it to be shipped back to Alaska to your original dealer.

There you go. Just undo the error.

Why was the dad trying to do an FFL to FFL transfer out of Alaska anyway? It's cumbersome, expensive, unnecessary and in this case appears to be impossible anyway.

If he's still legally an Alaska resident, he's going to have to come back up here to get his handgun from the dealer, then he can take it with him as checked baggage in the usual manner for handguns.

Either that or he can have the Montana or Alaska dealer put it up for sale on consignment.

He is in the process of moving all of his possessions to his brothers home in Montana where they will sit until he finds a place to live.

He should either fly with the arms himself in locking cases or ship them to himself.

 

[dirtykid]

^^ This ! and then come back and let us all know WHICH FFL in Montana to AVOID !,, why's he being such a "richard-for-short" ?

 

[HankR]

...as previously stated, his brother could fill out the form and take possession. It is not within The FFL's scope to deny that transaction, he's just being a persnickety jerk.

Could the FFL claim that he thinks this is a straw purchase (selling it to the brother, after the FIL is denied)?