Fighting knife characteristics

[conw]

I've admired the P'Kal and seen several videos of trained users demonstrating the proper technique. It appears to have the potential to be a devastating close-in weapon. My only reservation is that proper technique with the P'Kal seems somewhat more "un-intuitive" than a "normal" blade. In other words, it could be a great choice for a trained practitioner but perhaps not for a newbie. Of course proper training makes using any blade more effective.

Actually it's really not that hard. I personally don't believe in the efficacy of any knife fighting "system" for modern real world self defense that teaches 12, 16, 72, 128, whatever, number of angles, and so on. I also think there is a lot of lore (like "defanging") that is misapplied, and was originally intended for bigger weapons like the Golok, etc. And a lot of the Western bowie stuff was designed for a "fair" duel.

IMO if you are not using a golok, a bowie, or other big knife, and your goal is not scoring some enemy ears or dueling while nailed to a log or whatever, you should look into a simpler system.

The type of pikal/pakal fighting advocated by Southnarc for real world applications is about 10% skill with the blade, and 90% skill with your body. What I mean by that is that a "knife fight" is not a "knife fight"...it's a fight! So your priorities are the same in any fight: maintain mobility, maintain consciousness, survive! Fixating on the knife as a tool that immediately ends the fight (or a handgun for that matter) will lead to overreliance on a mindset that will fail against (a) determined attacker(s).

I can sum it up quick and dirty like this...keep your feet planted but don't go back on your heels; nose over toes; keep the elbows tight and compact and the hands in front of the face in a "compressed high fence" (SN credits Geoff Thompson here); don't "give up your hips" (meaning don't blade even to a slight degree) - in fact you want to encroach your opponent and "T" his hips - this is more of a BJJ/wrestling/MA concept really; use the pikal grip and stab, then pull the knife back to the starting position; if anything gets between your target (the legs or torso, preferably not the stomach though) you shear it (pull the knife toward you and, incidentally, cut the offending appendage).

Like I said, 90% of the technique is involved in footwork, zoning, and position of upper and lower body. The stabbing part is easy. Does anyone really honestly believe that a trained master of the knife arts is that much more dangerous than a prison shanking inmate or a crazy person with a kitchen knife?

Here is a more in-depth explanation of Pikal technique, but if you want my opinion, take some boxing and BJJ and practice deploying your knife - the other stuff will come naturally once you dial it in and is not really necessary to practice.

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/An Expression of Pikal.pdf

One other thing to keep in mind is that SN teaches two ranges. One is arm's length or so, the other is in a clinch. The arm's length technique involves more footwork/zoning and knife play, and the clinch work is more about positioning. Most MAs teach the arm's length stuff ad nauseam and don't really do clinch work...

 

[JShirley]

Well, I'll definitely agree about "fight with a knife present" (as opposed to a "knife fight") part...

 

[Readyrod]

Like I said, 90% of the technique is involved in footwork, zoning, and position of upper and lower body.

This is good info. I don't know much about fighting footwork so I'll have to check it out. I'm too old for boxing but I may go anyway just for the footwork part.

 

[conw]

Boxing will help with the 3 foot or so distances everyone hopes and imagines will exist in their knife fight. Bjj will help more with the likely-to-occur entangled situation where you access the knife during a tussle.

 

[Sniper X]

I hope to never get caught with only a knife, and since I ALWAYS carry a gun I might be the one bringing a gun to a knife fight.

 

[JShirley]

Distance is key, there. If you end up on the ground, you may very well only be able to access a knife in your front pockets.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Sharp , good balance and at least 6 inchs long. As a EX con in College told me the key to a knife fight is to Cheat to win. I have been in a knife fight in a bar and it is very scary and quite personal.

 

[JShirley]

You were in a fight where at least one knife was present. Whenever someone says "knife fight", it's frequently hard to tell if one person had a knife, or if they are talking about a knife duel...which is just insane.

 

[hso]

Knife duels are beyond rare in the real world these days.

Knife fights are more the stuff of training.

Fights with knives (and other pointy sharp things) are real, sudden, violent and frightening. I didn't find anything interesting or romantic about it and didn't enjoy it a bit (and don't want to ever have to face it again).

 

[Deltaboy1984]

It was not fun but I had to equalize a situation before it went too far.

 

[T.R.]

Full tang bowie by Timber Rattler is hard to beat. Overall length is 12 inches. They commonly sell for about $12. Made in Pakistan which is neither a negative nor positive statement. Just sharing the facts.

For a bit more money, BUCK model 119 "Special" is a very popular knife with US Armed Forces, hunters, hikers, and campers.

TR

 

[JShirley]

The 119 would be a great knife if the handle was a different material, and it had better steel.

 

[amazon shooter]

Some Answers to your Questions

There is an interesting book I read authored by W.E. Fairbairn called "Get Tough". It's old and probably out of print, but it covers the subject of knife fighting based on his personal experiences with the Shanghai Police Force before WWII. He covers the subject of killing with a knife in detail.

For Example: Method of Making the Cut

Artery #i. Knife in the right hand, attack opponent's left arm with a slashing cut outwards, as in Fig. A.

Artery #2. Knife in the right hand, attack opponent's left wrist, cutting downwards and inwards, as in Fig. B.

Artery #3. Knife in right hand, edges parallel to ground, seize opponent around the neck from behind with your left arm, pulling his head to the left. Thrust point well in; then cut sideways. See Fig. C.

Artery #4. Hold knife as in Fig. D; thrust point well in downwards; then cut.

Note. - This is not an easy artery to cut with a knife, but, once cut, your opponent will drop, and no tourniquet or any help of man can save him.

Heart #5. Thrust well in with the point, taking care when attacking from behind not to go too high or you will strike the shoulder blade.

Stomach #6. Thrust well in with the point and cut in any direction.

Note. - It knife is in left hand, when attacking arteries #1 and #2, reverse the above and attack opponent's right arm.

He also developed his own fighting knife - very interesting read.

Read his book - will answer some of your questions.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

The Brit was spot on and developed a great fighting knife, the book is straight to the point Kill or be Killed.

 

[Readyrod]

Just a bit of logical thinking here but if I have a knife and the other guy doesn't then I imagine he will run away. If we both have knives I will run away. (which is what I should be doing in the first place) If I can't run away then I probably want the knife.

 

[JShirley]

If you defend yourself with a knife, your attacker should discover you have a knife AFTER he's been cut.

 

[conw]

This isn't turn based Dungeons and Dragons. A fight is a fight so train for in fight weapon access. There are very few instances where you would lead with a knife. Maybe a seated choke defense.

 

[Gordon]

Well it wuz NOT defense on the mind when Mike Echannis showed the week end class in LA hs moves back in the early 70s. There wuz a war going on (winding down) and it wuz OK to sneak up on your enemy and silently ride him down. Times have changed, but one can still use such techniques on animals! I have never been stroked on the Fairbairn dagger since I saw my first one in the 50s. I read his books in the middle 60s BTW. I thought the Smatchet wuz pretty darn useful how ever. I thought since the middle 60s the Randall model #1 wuz about purrfect for a combat knife. Then I tried the #14 on my second tour and thought it an improvement. I went back to thinking the Randall #1-8 wuz better after the Mike Echannis training and went with that for a quarter century until I got hip to Mad Dog knives. His Panther is by far the best under 18" for cutting someone apart or getting a great fast stick to a vital organ. Guess you have to tie a hankie on our sleeves on a sand bar to prove my point, however!

 

[BEEinAK]

Many good posts here. As a martial arts instructor and knife enthusiast I train with many sizes and styles of blades. Unfortunately the one you feel is the perfect 'fighting knife' will undoubtedly be at home when you need it. So it really comes down to what is a good every day carry (EDC) knife that you will have on you should the event happen that it is needed.

I prefer to carry a 3 inch fixed blade carried horizontally so I can access it while protecting my core. It is big enough to do most jobs, and is also small enought to not draw attention. I also carry a folder with clip for my weak side. Everyone has preferences as to what is the ideal knife and how to carry it as well as how to hold it. To find the right one for you will take just handling as many as you can. What works for me or someone else may not be the best for you.

The most important thing is that you practice not only using it, but deploying it! I teach and practice deployment of blades while grappling and from different positions because that is probably when you will need to use one in true self defense.

Another poster mentioned blades for military and taking out sentry's also being good for animals- when I lived in Texas I did kill a few feral hogs with a Chris Reeve Project One which is a great design for many knife needs.

The knife that saved me when I had the misfortune of needing to use one in self defense while in another country was a Bowen belt buckle knife that I wore daily. It certainly does not fit the role of what most think of if they could pick one, but it was the one with me.

Practice hard, keep it sharp and I hope you will never need to use one in defense.
B

 

[JShirley]

B,

Welcome to the forum. I definitely agree about practicing presentation.

John