Fighting knife characteristics

[JShirley]

I think the Gurkhas have at least as good a reputation for using knives to deadly effect as any other modern fighting group. I believe this is partially because kukris are daily-use tools in Nepalese culture- and Gurkhas have the right (fighting) spirit.

Kukris have immense chopping potential for their length, and are used with a simple manual of arms. Personally, I believe a deep thrust may well kill an attacker- but probably not instantly. Disarming him will stop the attack, though, and ultimately, stopping the attack is the most important goal, right? Additionally, the only time I would ever defend myself with a large knife is when I was already working with it. Most American Fighters aren't good for much aside from stabbing. I would only have a really large camp knife, which would also meet my ideas about the quickest way to use a knife to stop an attack. The knife should be pointy enough to stab, but optimized for chopping.

 

[Readyrod]

Are you more interested in a folding knife or a fixed blade?

Fixed right now but I'm open to suggestions.

So what do I usually carry?

Right now I carry a Wenger emergency tool. For emergencies.

This is the thing. The older I get the more I realize that "things" happen. I've had car crashes, bike crashes, my house has burned down, I've had guns pulled on me and even been shot at once. Then there is the stuff I don't talk about. But the earthquake last March really got me thinking that "things" will happen. I was prepared for the quake (thanks to the Katrina guy sticky posted here on THR. Can't find it right now but I owe that guy a couple of beers he is sooooo right) and even remembered to grab my bob on the way out. Never in a million years did I think that I would ever be dealing with Japans biggest earthquake or multiple nuclear meltdowns, man the rain was even radioactive.

So now I assume that things will happen and I want to be ready. Part of that is knowing what a good fighting knife is. When we were waiting in the parking lot for the aftershocks to stop (about three hours worth) we were the only people who had warm clothes or food or any other supplies thanks to my bob. My wife was even telling me to hide the food in case. Situations like that can get ugly even here in Japan. I even want a Geiger counter as I don't trust the food anymore. Oh and the earthquakes haven't stopped yet, we had a big one this week. I may be paranoid but the real question is am I paranoid enough.

Sorry to rant, no offense meant, it's been a rough year.

So I want to learn about fighting knifes for the next disaster. Just in case.
RR

 

[Readyrod]

I would only have a really large camp knife, which would also meet my ideas about the quickest way to use a knife to stop an attack. The knife should be pointy enough to stab, but optimized for chopping.

I also like the excuse of having another use for the knife (It's just a tool officer) but it's still gotta be effective for defense.

 

[22-rimfire]

Here's one that might on the surface seem odd; It is a very stout knife (4.3" blade) and made with 1095 Carbon Steel. Take a look and also look at other Condor products. They are very cost effective. This knife cost me about $25 US. http://www.condortk.com/productsdetail.php?prodid=60004

The micata handled version runs about $50 US.

 

[JShirley]

Okay, maybe I was unclear. A large, useful knife, imo, is also more effective for defense than most so-called fighters. A good, sharp machete, a kukri, or a barong would be good examples.

 

[Readyrod]

I have a couple of 4" Frosts that I use as general work/utility knives. I figure that they will also work for skinning. I also plan to get some machetes; 12", 18", and 24" to use as tools. I just don't have something between 4" and 12".
Also how about the Buck 119 for fighting? I can get a good price and it could double as a camp/hunting knife.

 

[hso]

I don't think this discussion has much meaning unless you explain what you mean by "fighting".

If you mean self defense when attacked, what are your concerns for being attacked?

When/where do you plan of carrying this?

 

[Valkman]

I had some ideas of what a Fighter should be when I made them, so bear with me as I pontificate on what one means to me:

1. Tough - I made these for soldiers and wanted it strong enough to do any job that came up. If it broke under ANY circumstances I'd consider it a failure.


2. Versatile - I gave it 6" of grip and 2 choils so it could be gripped in a number of ways, however the job at hand demanded. Also perfect for gloved hands, important for soldiers.

3. Size - I know some feel a smaller knife is better for soldiers but I gave most of these 6" blades and they were 12" overall. Not small but hopefully valuable enough to carry. I also made some 5" Fighters with the same 6" handle and they were pretty sweet.

4. Thickness - I made these out of 3/16" steel as I felt 1/4" was too heavy. 3/16" would still be tough enough for any job.

5. Handle - Sand blasted Micarta all the way for soldiers. I had civilians order all kinds of different handles and that's fine because then they're not really for fighting anyway, right? The micarta was perfect for gloved hands and very grippy.

6. Top Edge - I left it unsharpened unless the customer requested otherwise. It's illegal in too many places to have as "stock" and not really needed anyway.

7. Steel - Only the best so I used D2 or CPMD2 mainly with some CPM154. Combined with Paul Bos Heat treat these were the best combinations I could come up with.

That's it for now - I'll add more if I think of something.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Still make em?

 

[Valkman]

No Sir, I had a little accident with a table saw and quit making knives after that.

 

[JShirley]

The thing is, the modern combat troop carries a lot of gear. I actually caught some ribbing for carrying a knife with less than a 5" blade in theater. I used my knife to do all the regular knife stuff, plus cut open mortar "tootsie roll" shell carrier for fire missions. I even (warning: this is known abuse) used it once to pry out an 120mm round that was frozen in its carrier.

At least one commander refused to let his soldiers carry fixed blades at all. There was one officer I saw when I was deployed 06-07 who carried a bayonet. People laughed. At my last battle assembly, the officer giving the briefing (a Navy O3 who is one of the most capable officers I've ever met) said what I have heard numerous times in the Army: knives with blades over 4" are weapons. What this means in practical terms, is that, unless you're somewhere where you're expected to carry a rifle and ammunition with you everywhere, your knife will have to be kept in the arms room. A 4" or less blade can be kept with you everywhere you stay, in the US or out. I spent almost three months with the "Quiet Professionals" of 3rd and then 7th Group. Know how many of these ultimate soldiers carried a large fixed blade? None. They carried little Benchmades.

A combat Soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine not only has at least one personal weapon (firearm), he has access to crew-served weaponry and backup artillery and air support. Someone camping in the woods may not have even a single firearm he can use.

Smallish knives aren't as useful in general for defense as other things. Large knives are more useful for defense than small knives. You're going to seem pretty stupid if you have a big chunk of steel that you cart around that's only really useful for sticking people- when you could have a longer, more effective defensive tool that would also be useful for more things, like clearing brush. I've seen some beautiful fighters, like the Kim Breed hso has, but if I had to defend myself with a sharp piece of steel, I'd take something like a Fiddleback Forge 16" (blade length) machete or a 19" (OAL) Himalayan Imports kukuri every single damn time.

 

[Gordon]

"knives with blades over 4" are weapons"

Ya know I think he got it right! That's a fighting knife! G-d forbid a warrior might- fight!

Anyway I have a Valkman 6" and it IS a very good fighter, thank you sir !

 

[JShirley]

Uh...those "warriors" also don't get to cart around their M4s everywhere, either. A smaller knife they could take with them anywhere. Something like this Becker BK14 would be more useful, and at well under 5oz including sheath, won't be too heavy to be carrying in addition to 40 lbs of body armor, at least one firearm, eye protection, gloves, batteries, light, ammunition, and mission-specific gear.

Stone Mountain in Georgia has a small museum with Civil War equipment. The museum displays include several very large bowies, with the explanation that they littered the trails the Rebs marched, as they were disposed because of their weight- and this was in an age of mostly single-shot arms.

We carry more weight now, and much more reliable, high-capacity repeating firearms.

 

[Gordon]

The Beckers and Rats are very good and affordble tools tools, I agree. A John Greco custom made knife is never gonna break, holds a good edge and it is hand made, cheap! I have them on everything I carry. This is my favorite and it's under 4" !
http://www.grecoknives.com/flat_ground_hunter_style_boot_knife.htm

 

[TaxPhd]

Look at a Bagwell Bowie.



An Actual Bill Bagwell knife is quite spendy. However, Ontario offers several Bagwell designed Bowies at attractive prices.

 

[hso]

used to offer

The Ontario Bagwells haven't been made in several years.

 

[Readyrod]

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I've got a few more questions/comments but it will have to wait till the weekend. Work ya know.
RR

 

[TaxPhd]

used to offer

The Ontario Bagwells haven't been made in several years.

Yeah, I've been hiding under a rock for the last few years.

I'll change that to, "If you can find an Ontario version of a Bagwell Bowie, you might get a good knife at a (hopefully) good price."

 

[USAF_Vet]

Uh...those "warriors" also don't get to cart around their M4s everywhere, either. A smaller knife they could take with them anywhere

JShirley makes a good point. With 10 years on Active duty, 3 tours in Iraq, I had an issued weapon on me all of about one year, all told, maybe. During my entire adult life, I've always had a small blade on me. Be it a folder, or a multi-tool, I could carry a tool that could serve as a weapon everywhere I went. Yeah, I could carry a large fighting knife (where legal) but they are big and cumbersome and not at all fun to carry for long periods of time. My Benchamde clips to my pocket in the morning, and gets taken off at night, and I really never feel it, but it's always there when I need it. On the rare day I forget it, I feel naked. Fighting knives are great if you're likely to get in a fight, but I'd much rather be the one bringing a gun to the knife fight.

 

[saltydog452]

Combative experience? Nope.

In an earlier time and place I did kinda/sorta witness a successful blade encounter.

It was a Road House Bar room fight outside Ft.Gordon, where the local 'Bubba' and a soldier got crossways with one another and a 1on1 tussle got underway.

No blade was seen, but 'Bubba', rec'd a ride to the local Hosp. He was dang near eviserated. Kinda doubtful that a 12" Damascus Bowie was used. This was pre Buck 110 times.

I drove him to the Hosp. and was there in the ER with the Doc. Just a little deeper and Bubba could have needed a bucket to transport all body parts.

What is a fighting knife? Short blade, thrust blade, or something to hack off limbs? Mostly, I think, its whatever you have available, close to hand, and circumstances dictate that you just gotta 'fight' something with it.

That could be maybe removing a splinter, stripping a wire, slicing kernels of corn off the cob, snuging up a loose screw, etc..

Kinda unlikely 'tho that we'd need to repel boarders coming over the walls at the Alamo.

There are a few posters in this forum who have the ability to skin, slice, dice, fillet, and grill a Bison with a butter knife. In a pinch, maybe they could make do with using a thumb nail.

Too long. Sorry.

salty

 

[BRad704]

I think the long and the short of it is that "there is no good answer"... sorta like someone making the blanket question of "what car should i buy"...

 

[baylorattorney]

The Ka-Bar is more like a short sword and I'd rather have it in my hand than an umbrella, cane or hickory stick any day. You don't see umbrellas in combat where defensive measures have been tried and are true.

 

[JShirley]

The Ka-Bar is more like a short sword

Negative, ghost rider. The Marine Fighting Knife is not much like a short sword. It's just too much knife to be very practical for most deployed troops to haul around in addition to all the other bulky, heavy gear they're already wearing.

I'd rather have it in my hand than an umbrella, cane or hickory stick any day

Well, the experts tend to be on the other side. I have probably 500 hours or more in training with sticks and knives, and I'd take a 3' or longer stick over any blade shorter than 15", every day of the week.

You don't see umbrellas in combat where defensive measures have been tried and are true.

This is known as a "red herring". Sure, you don't see many umbrellas in (battlefield) combat, but there have been many, many, many uses of riot batons for less-lethal use against entire crowds of people armed with bottles, rocks, and- oh, yeah- knives. Despite frequently being outnumbered, the guys with the batons usually win. For that matter, there are a few African tribes- with powerful warrior traditions- whose male members never leave home without a stick...or an umbrella.

John

 

[Valkman]

John is way more "correct" in what he feels a fighter should be - he has BTDT. I have not - I dreamed up my fighter in my shop and made it and it sold very well. But for a guy already carrying 100+lbs of gear in 100+ degree heat I defer to what he says and I believe him that smaller is better in that situation. Anyone who's had the training he has should be listened to IMHO.

 

[JShirley]

...and Don made beautiful knives. I'm sorry for everyone that they will no longer be available, while being thankful I had a chance to buy a large one recently. My own current "deployment blade" is a Landshark with the handle reduced for my smallish hand.

I may be taking it overseas with me soon...