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Heres a company that will sell you all the AP and Incendiary .50 you want.
http://www.50bmgsupply.com/

PS
Checked the Video, thats a model flying wing no wider than a coffee table and no thicker than your hand from the looks of it. Also it was making turns in an area and with a rapidity that no civilian chopper or military for that matter could hope to match. A very unrealistic test.
 
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Well with specialized ammunition that does give an edge. But even back in WW2 they had such, and still considered the .50 round to have an irrelevant increase in effectiveness over the .303. The experts all agree, you need explosive content to take down moving aircraft.

Nolo I understand the .25 vs .45ACP comparison, it's good point. But with aircraft there's just so much structure, and the odds of hitting critical components are so low. Time have proven repeatedly that the pilots are the weakest link, the most vulnerable and most likely to be shot down.

An excellent example is the French using helicopters against Algerians just after WW2. These were weak helicopters, simple transport and medevac helicopters like you'd see in tv show MASH. And the way the French turned them into gunships was simply to put guys with machine guns into the pods on the side for transporting patients! Thus they had the first helicopter gunships, and very weak ones at that. Going against Algerians they took a lot of ground fire, and what they discovered was that the pilots were the weak link. What they did was put in armour seats for them to sit on, and then when pilots kept getting injured (even 'misses' would have spall hit pilots) they made the pilots fly with heavy heavy thick fiberglass blankets on them!:evil:



Rluening that's a challenge and a half to figure out how to get the file! I won't spoil the mystery for others though:)
 
Look, we all know the capability, (at least I do) of a 50BMG caliber machine gun, with proper sights and amunition. I am not arguing that point. he very reason that the presence of 50BMG, not even mentioned by name but by "50-Caliber", is to create hysteria among the ignorant. What if the "ammunition was 50 caliber ball for a muzzleloader? Or 50 caliber for a pistol?

That is the significance of the "50-caliber" reference. When mentioned by the antigun crowd, the capabilities of 50BMG are always overstated! One reference by Diane Feinstein implied that an 18 year old kid, could go to a gunshow, get a 50 caliber ultra long range antiarmor rifle, without a background check, get on top of the Washington Monument and pin down everyone within 5 miles, including ALL the aircraft at Reagen International Airport. A blogger had reposted that speech and was dumb enough to believe it wa true. Even if it wasn't true, "why should civilians be allowed to own such a powerful and destructive weapon?" I unsuccessfully tried to explain the truth without making her look stupid, I did explain it, but she lokked stupid anyway.

So somehow, since a 50 caliber machine gun, especially one mounted with three others and a motor driven carriage and controlled by radar, can be effective against aircraft and lightly armored vehicles, a guy with his breech loading single shot should have his gun taken away, or because it is remotely possible, that an 18 year old would have a spare $10,000.00, would happen to find a Barret and a decent quantity of ammunition, would also happen to find a Barret being sold under a private sale, and would happen to be proficient enough to hit man sized targets four miles away, that ALL fifties, should be banned, and it is contitutionally acceptable to do so. So, since it is possible, then why do you continue to do so, when there are no examples of target 50 BMG rifles being used in a crime in the US. If the ATF is right, why then is there no evidence that this is happening? The relative scarcity of 50 BMG rifles seems to make them that much easier to track. This is a classic case of a solution, (ban all 50BMG rifles and ammunition) lokking for a problem that doesn't exist. Let me ask you Roswell, do you think a crackdown in the US and ban of all 50 BMG ammunition would prevent South and Central American Durg Lords from getting 50BMG Ammunition? Of course not, the stuff is made all over the world!
 
Shooting down RC aircraft - take two

This is the same video referenced in my previous post, just easier to get to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFbij9WddYU

Roswell - I don't suggest it is a realistic test. It is, however, people shooting a flying object at close range with multiple machine guns. It takes several passes for someone to score a hit that knocks it down. If someone would donate a Huey, I bet they'd let the line have a crack at it. Finding a pilot may be difficult...

/rl
 
I don't suggest it is a realistic test. It is, however, people shooting a flying object at close range with multiple machine guns. It takes several passes for someone to score a hit that knocks it down. If someone would donate a Huey, I bet they'd let the line have a crack at it. Finding a pilot may be difficult...

Really illustrates the relative lack of effectiveness ground fire has against aircraft. I would wager that more than 3,000 rounds were fired at the RC plane. And further, if taken to scale, those rounds would be the equivalent of full automatic artillery against a real plane/jet.

The notion that any projectile firing weapon presents a threat to aircraft flying at 50,000 feet and moving over 500 MPH is just ridiculous. I think it would be difficult to bring down a low flying Cessna with an M2, let alone a jetliner with a single shot rifle.
 
Roswell - I don't suggest it is a realistic test. It is, however, people shooting a flying object at close range with multiple machine guns. It takes several passes for someone to score a hit that knocks it down. If someone would donate a Huey, I bet they'd let the line have a crack at it. Finding a pilot may be difficult...
Two points:
A). This is a much, much smaller target than a helicopter.
B). You aren't leading it properly.
Nolo I understand the .25 vs .45ACP comparison, it's good point. But with aircraft there's just so much structure, and the odds of hitting critical components are so low. Time have proven repeatedly that the pilots are the weakest link, the most vulnerable and most likely to be shot down.
You are correct when talking about things like F6F Hellcats or F-86 Sabres. When you're talking helos, the equation is completely different. They are very easy to take down. Slow-flying, lightly armored, big targets. And, as always, the pilot is the weakest link (but with helicopters, the drivetrain is a really good substitute. I would also like to say that, in many combat aircraft, .30 cal bullets will not pierce the windshield. .50s will.
 
But with aircraft there's just so much structure, and the odds of hitting critical components are so low. Time have proven repeatedly that the pilots are the weakest link, the most vulnerable and most likely to be shot down.
In WW2 American Fighters the Pilot was the best protected component of the entire aircraft, same went for WW1 Ground attack aircraft. The Japanese were the only WW2 participants that did not provide heavy armored protection for the fighter pilot. Few bombers provided extra armor for the pilots, German light twin engine bombers early in the war had no armor and the aircrew were bunched together so one burst from a Hurricane could kill everyman aboard.
Winshields and canopies were of course vulnerable, though if you got a head on shot that meant you were already under the enemies guns and taking fire.

Several US Aces have spoken of taking 20mm cannon fire that struck the heavy armor behind their seats or ripped away the cockpit aft of their seats and they survived.

A great many pilots parachuted to safety after their aircraft was shot to ribbons. A great many aircraft ditched in the oceans after a battle when damage they hadn't even noticed during a battle made the craft unflyable.

Let me ask you Roswell, do you think a crackdown in the US and ban of all 50 BMG ammunition would prevent South and Central American Durg Lords from getting 50BMG Ammunition? Of course not, the stuff is made all over the world!
Once again someone posts rebuttal to a position that I do not support.
The discussion began only because I see nothing wrong with the statement that the .50 BMG, and the story as written leads me to believe these were the rounds found, is capable of taking down an aircraft.
The "Green Boxes" of .50 Ammo I've been were the sort that carry belted .50BMG for heavy machineguns.

Now as for the possibility of smuggling weapons and ammo from the US to Mexico being more likely for the Drug gangs and rebels in Mexico than smuggling the same contraband from other countries.
One, The major Rebel groups in Mexico at this time and the ones with the most influence with the Drug cartels are hangers on of former Fascist Mexican Government. They would have little contact with the Communists Regimes, which are their natural enemies.
These Gangs and rebel groups are clustered near our borders because thats where the money is.
Its a lot easier to cross the border with contraband from this side, and its practically a revolving door as it is.

Historically Arms Smuggling from the US into Mexico has been a booming business for more than a century.
Mexican-Americans with ties to old Mexico have historically bankrolled such operations, though more often for political reasons rather than criminal enterprizes.

Now as for the story as written.
It doesn't give enough detail to be sure just what was actually going down. The 1/4 million value claim is very likely inflated, which it almost always is in any such story.

If such a haul were found locally it would be assumed that it was loot from a Gunshop burglary, rather than a smuggling operation. The Cans of .50BMg wouldn't even draw much notice, since surplus dealers here occasionally have old stocks of such ammo in the backroom, sometimes completely forgotten because there was no market for it when they picked it up years before. People used to use linked belts of Machinegun ammo as decorator items. The stuff was sold off by the pound when it passed its expiration date and showed corrosion.

The discussion as far as I'm concerned is that .50 BMG is a highly effective round for use against low flying aircraft and lightly armored executive protection vehicles. This is just common sense.

Downplaying or denying the effectiveness of the .50BMG round does nothing to help your case against the Gungrabbers. It in fact makes your arguments look specious and self serving.

PS
More on the Barrett "Soft Mount" from Janes.
Description
The soft mount allows the M107/82A1M and XM109 systems to be mounted on a tripod or on land and water vehicles. The unique soft recoiling action of the mount acts as a buffer, preventing possible damage to the vehicle’s mounting structure. The soft mount is designed to support the rifle at the centre of gravity and on the axis of the bore, so that the sights remain on target during firing. It is equipped with the standard small pintle allowing it to fit directly into the M3 and M122 tripod sockets. With the use of the standard pintle adaptor it will fit into the standard large pintle socket.

Your can buy one of those mounts online for a little ove a grand.
 
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sat in on a booze and bs session with a couple guys from one of the alphabet soup agencies. one of em was tasked with compiling a how to for taking down an airliner. one of em involved a 50 and was way too easy. several of his plans were quite disturbing in terms of low cost and simplicity
 
"The simple fact is that a semi-auto .50 is at a disadvantage versus ALL other weapons you could use to shoot slow and low aircraft. "

lol thanks i needed a laugh
 
the cartels built a freakin sub and folks think they couldn't wouldn't do something far simpler? heck they had 100 k contracts out on governer chiles and admiral yost in the late 80's
 
Ooh, this looks fun!

PHOENIX (AP) - Spread across a conference table at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix are enough weapons to equip several car loads of drug runners.
Or hunters, or law abiding citizens, or security guards, or police....

Agents said Thursday they found the 42 weapons in a storage locker about 10 days ago. The guns were worth $250,000 in all: Belgian-made ``FN’’ handguns, semiautomatic AK rifles and other pistols.

Wow, almost $6k each! Which FN pistol is worth $6k?
They also found four olive boxes loaded with 50-caliber bullets - ammunition that’s big enough to take out an airplane.
Never mind that .22LR is big enough to take out an airplane.

``These are, quite frankly, weapons of war,’’ ATF special agent Tom Mangan said as he picked up an assault rifle and examined it.
Tanks! They gots tanks! And jets!? OOOOO WANTS
``The type of fire power you’re seeing here is on the increase,’’ he said. ``You’re seeing sophisticated weapons, military weapons, assault type weapons, assault pistols, very expensive pistols.’’
No kidding they're expensive! $6k is about 1000% above the market for an FN pistol. And how sophisticated are they? F15 avionics included in the grips? Do they have Harpoon missiles? TOWIIs? ooooo are drug runners using hellfires!? WANTS!

ATF officials said gun runners typically gather large caches of weapons anonymously through ``straw’’ purchases. They might give someone $100 to go into a gun show or a Wal-Mart and buy a few rifles at a time. They might buy guns over the Internet.
$100 *might* get them a used .22 at a gun show. Now now silly media and ATF. Are they worth $6000 each, or are they worth $100 each. I'm all confused, you're giving conflicting information here. Wait... a few rifles at a time. We have to assume that a "few" means greater than two... so uh... $30 each? Hellfires and TOWIIs, and FN pistols. Hell yeah. WHERE IS THIS GUN SHOW.

WANTS

Some of those guns end up in the hands of California gangs or with coyotes herding illegal immigrants into the U.S. But Mangan said a majority of the guns are smuggled into Mexico for use by drug dealers.
Now that's just plain wrong. Because, I'll pay $30 all day long for FN pistols. Ship them to me! WANTS

Mangan said this year the ATF Phoenix office learned that about 300 assault-type weapons were brought south on one occasion, and another 200 assault-type weapons were smuggled on a separate occasion.
M16s? M4s? Giggle switches? I think maybe the ATF Phoenix office suffers from cranial-rectal inversion.

``Certainly, these narcoterrorist organizations, these drug organizations have unlimited source of income, and it’s just a matter of getting these guns,’’
Hahahaha, it just wouldn't be FUD if you didn't work the word "terrorist" into the story now would it. But that's REAAAAAAAAAAALY reaching.
Mangan said. ``And where do they get these guns? They get them here.’’
From who!? Who's selling M16s and M4 and full auto AK47s for $30 a piece. WANTS.

Jim Needles, an ATF agent who was recently transferred to Arizona from New York, said he was alarmed by the kind of weapons agents are finding here.
I think Jim Needles might be alarmed by a kitten. Just a guess.
``You see a lot of firearms seized in New York, but not that sophisticated type of weapon,’’ he said. ``You don’t see AK-47s. You don’t see the 50-caliber type of weapons.’’
What's sophisticated about an AK? It must be one of the most unsophisticated semi design ever. I mean, it's beauty is it's simplicity, not it's "sophistication." Unless of course, they're coming with electronic guidance systems, and on-bullet avionics. And by "sophisticated," surely he doesn't mean a bolt action .50? Surely he doesn't mean that.
Raul Saavedra, deputy counsul at the Mexican Consulate in Douglas, Ariz., said he didn’t have data to back up ATF’s claim that gun-running is on the rise. But he said the Mexican government has recognized it as a huge problem.

We don't have anything to substantiate this, but we're just going to agree. And we'll call it a "huge problem," even though we didn't realize it until we picked up the phone to answer these questions. Sneaky reporter... give us time to PLAN for distributing FUD. The Mexican FUD machine works a bit slower than Bloomberg's. We need time to come up with stupid statistics.
``A lot of the drug violence comes through weapons, and those weapons are bought in the U.S.,’’ Saavedra said.
By .... mexican .... CRIMINALS maybe? Why don't you do something about the criminals? Oh wait, you can't, because your own police forces are so criminalized you had to take their guns and give them slingshots.
The Mexican government has called on the United States to stop the flow of guns into the country, he said, but America’s firearms laws make it hard to stop gun running.
I know how to do it. But you won't. It's the same problem we have north of the border, but of course no one wants to address the real issues. Here's the answer. Ready for it? "Lock up your criminals. Keep them locked up." KTHX. I SOLVD UR GUNZ PROBLMZ K BAI.
``What’s been useful is there has been a lot of cooperation’’ between the countries to stem the gun trade, Saavedra said.
Sounds more to me like there's been a lot of cooperation on how to bull#$%^ the American public via the media. I'm impressed! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. Hah!

``If weapons are seized in Mexico, they pass that information to U.S. authorities, and they can track that number to where it was bought, and they can at least confirm if the sale was done legally,’’ he added.
Good job! But what'd you do with the criminal who had the gun? Huuuuuuuuuuh?
The weapons recently seized by the ATF are among 111 guns the Phoenix office collected this month. Mangan wouldn’t provide details about where they were found and where they were headed. The ATF is still investigating the incident, he said.
We'd work harder to figure things out, but it's hard to see because of this rectal-cranial inversion problem. Hard to hear too. And everything smells bad. So for now, we'll just make ludicrous claims in the media, and ignorant people will pin a medal on us.
 
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEFDC103BF93BA35751C1A96F948260

Mexican Police Shooting Down Drug Planes, Officials Declare
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By ERIC WEINER, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: December 8, 1989
LEAD: Mexican federal police have shot down four drug-laden planes in the past three months and will continue to fire at suspicious planes that do not respond to warnings, a senior Mexican official has announced.

Mexican federal police have shot down four drug-laden planes in the past three months and will continue to fire at suspicious planes that do not respond to warnings, a senior Mexican official has announced.

The shootings, in which at least one suspected drug-runner was reported killed, took place in the Mexican states of Chihuahua, Durango and Nayarit, and on the Baja California peninsula, Mexican officials said. Few details were offered about the fate of the other pilots and the amount of drugs seized.
 
:
``Certainly, these narcoterrorist organizations, these drug organizations have unlimited source of income, and it’s just a matter of getting these guns,’’

Hahahaha, it just wouldn't be FUD if you didn't work the word "terrorist" into the story now would it. But that's REAAAAAAAAAAALY reaching.
Mexican and South American Drug Gangs have used Tactics that were at one time considered extreme even compared to Al-Quida.
Since Carlos the Jackal converted to Islam the tactics of Islamic terrorists have actually become more extreme.

Mexican drug gangs murder Mexican police and civilians by the thousands every year, and last year began delivering their heads to warn off any who co-operate with the police.
Using the Term Terrorist in relation to this sort of calculated violence is certainly in order.

South American Cartels invaded the Supreme court building in one country and executed a number of judges.
Murders of Mexican journalists by Drug Gangs are commonplace.

$100 *might* get them a used .22 at a gun show.
I expect the C-Note would be payment for making the purchases, not the purchase price of the guns.
Sounds to low at that unless they paid $100 over the cost for each gun.


I think we can all agree that the story is poorly researched and sensationalistic. But thats the standard of Journalism in this country today.

PS
By ALFREDO CORCHADO / The Dallas Morning News
[email protected]

NUEVO LAREDO, Mexico – Even in a country accustomed to gangland violence, the news is disquieting.

In coordinated strikes, armed men rob at least five casinos in four states, killing a bystander and escaping with bundles of money. In the northern state of Sonora, an attack on a police station leaves five officers dead and announces the arrival of a new criminal force in the region. The likely culprit in both cases: the Zetas, a ruthless organization that was virtually unheard of just five years ago.

The Zetas, created by a group of highly trained military deserters to work as enforcers for the Gulf drug cartel, have become so powerful that their old handlers are quickly losing control, authorities said.

The group, first concentrated along Mexico's border with Texas, has evolved into a powerful threat in its own right, spreading its brand of brutal violence into 31 Mexican states as it battles for control of new regions and key border entry points, U.S. and Mexican authorities say.

"The Zetas have clearly become the biggest, most serious threat to the nation's security," said Raul Benitez, a Mexico security expert at American University in Washington, D.C.

"Now they want to control the nation's drug routes and along the way topple the traditional cartel leaders," said Mr. Benitez. "We're witnessing a classic coup under way."

Among the newly targeted border areas is Ciudad Juárez, the city across the border from El Paso and long the stronghold of the Juárez cartel, authorities said. The Zetas also have made inroads in Acapulco, Monterrey and Veracruz, usually with a flurry of high-profile killings of police and other officials.

Working with brutal Central American gangs and former death squads from Guatemala known as Kaibiles, the Zetas have morphed into a 2,000-member paramilitary organization operating in most of Mexico, including the Federal District, Mexico City, according to U.S. law enforcement officials and academic experts who monitor the group. Mexican authorities declined to estimate the size of the force.

"The combination of Kaibiles and former Mexican elite military units forms a deadly triangle that represents the perfect threat to Mexico," Mr. Benitez said.

Former Gulf cartel leader Osiel Cárdenas, who recruited the original Zetas – numbering about 50 and many with training in the U.S., Israel and Colombia – was extradited to the U.S. in January. With him out of the picture, the group has become more independent, officials say.

Growing rift
One U.S. law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said clear signs have emerged of a growing rift between the Gulf cartel and their enforcers. The mistrust is so great that leaders of both organizations – Jorge Eduardo Costilla-Sanchez, known as El Coss, the reputed leader of the Gulf cartel, and Heriberto Lazcano, known as El Verdugo, "The Executioner," head of the Zetas, communicate strictly via teleconference or through intermediaries.

"The Gulf cartel created the lion, but now the lion has wised up and controls the handler," said the U.S. law enforcement official, on condition of anonymity. "This has resulted in the lion roaming free and leaving a bloody trail of chaos. The Zetas don't ask the Gulf cartel permission for anything anymore. They simply inform them of their activities, whenever they feel like it."

Elements of the Zetas have been operating in U.S. cities as well, including Dallas, where hits have been ordered for at least three years now, according to a 2005 U.S. Justice Department memo. In March, a man who killed a Dallas police officer had apparent ties to a possible associate of the Zetas, Dallas police said.

Across Mexico, the Zetas' tentacles have spread from Nuevo Laredo and the state of Tamaulipas to more than 24 other states, including Nuevo León, Tabasco, Veracruz, Guerrero, Michoacán, Sonora, Baja California, Chihuahua and even Mexico City, which previously was largely exempt from the executions recorded almost daily elsewhere.

Police recently found unexploded grenades in two subway stations, and there has been a steady number of drug-style executions. Signs have gone up in key intersections urging the Zetas out of the nation's capital.

In Ciudad Juárez, across from El Paso, at least six law enforcement officials have been killed in the last two weeks, apparently the work of the Zetas, U.S. authorities say. Police officers are on high alert, and many have canceled vacations.

"Their modus operandi is very similar to operations in [the states of] Tamaulipas, Veracruz and Tabasco," said Julio Fentanes, a spokesman for the Juárez's municipal police. "Their style of operation, use of brand-new stolen SUVs [and] high-powered weapons, is similar to those of other commando groups that we have heard of in other territories."

The Gulf cartel is battling the Sinaloa cartel for control of key drug distribution routes, including Interstate 35, which begins across the border from Nuevo Laredo. Nationwide, more than 1,200 people have been killed in Mexico this year, according to an unofficial tally by the Mexico City newspaper El Universal.

Since winning by a narrow margin in last year's election, Felipe Calderón has made confronting the drug cartels the focal point of his presidency. He has deployed troops in several states, including Michoacán, Guerrero and Tabasco, and the cities of Tijuana and Monterrey.

So far, most of those killed have been drug traffickers, soldiers and law enforcement officials, but a few civilians have been killed.

On Wednesday, an 18-year-old student identified as Karen Siller Gomez was killed as she and her sister were entering the Caliente casino bar in Saltillo, Coahuila. Last week, casinos in the states of Nuevo León, Veracruz, Coahuila and Baja California were robbed in what a U.S. law enforcement official says were coordinated hits by the Zetas to pressure casino owners to let them in on the business.

On Sunday, Mexico City's Reforma newspaper reported that 26 casinos in 11 states had shut down because of pressure from drug cartels.

Control regions
Mexico's leading news magazine, Proceso, quoted Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora as telling Mexican legislators that the Zetas are in control of several regions of the country and have also been "taking control of several of our police forces, corrupting them. ... They're taking our police away." A spokeswoman later confirmed Mr. Medina Mora's comments.

The Zetas' strategy is to gain control of distribution routes into the U.S. by controlling border entry points and transshipment points, U.S. and Mexican authorities said.

In recent months, a shadowy new group known as La Gente Nueva, or "the new people," has entered the scene. La Gente Nueva, according to both U.S. and Mexican authorities, represents an effort to counter the Zetas' growing reach. The band of mostly former police officers appears to be receiving funding from the Sinaloa cartel and has set out also to avenge the lives of hundreds of police officers killed by the Zetas, authorities said.

La Gente Nueva is also known for brutality, with torture and decapitation of its victims shown on videos, some of them posted on Web sites. Some authorities have compared the group to Colombia's Los Pepes, a vigilante group formed in the 1990s to track down and kill drug kingpin Pablo Escobar. Los Pepes evolved into the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia, or AUC, a paramilitary group whose human rights abuses continue to haunt the South American nation.

The latest threatening note allegedly written by La Gente Nueva was left on a decapitated head in the Gulf state of Veracruz. It accused the state's top law enforcement officials of protecting the Zetas, saying, "[The officials] who work for the disgusting Zetas are going to end up just like this guy."
 
Ros, You're paddling upstream on this one........

Comparing a bolt or semi-auto .50 BMG to the multiple gun platform of a fighter aircraft is foolish. Six fifties, (a D model P-51) @600rpm/g = 3600 rpm or 60 rps......kinda hard to match with a bolt action or even a semi.....

Yeah you can 'golden BB' anything except, perhaps, a Warthog. But we're discussing hitting a moving warplane target with a bolt/semi action 25lb.+, 5' long rifle at around 500 yards or less sans benefit of tracer ammo to aid in aim correction.........And, in case you haven't noticed, most of our choppers and all of our fixed wings sport a degree of armour over critical areas......In addition to multiply redundent systems..........

BTW, civilian aircraft sport most of the 'triple redundancy' and have significantly less 'critical density' than do warplanes..... >MW
 
are we?

"But we're discussing hitting a moving warplane target with a bolt/semi action 25lb.+, 5' long rifle at around 500 yards "

were we? are the cops using war planes somewhere? maybe where the guard is helping out but around here they don't fly anything armored. and in some of the controlled airspaces certain types of traffic are funneled into very narrow defined zones. much of the military helo traffic in and around dc for example particularly in the proximity of national airport where they come in below the commercial flight path appoaches. i thinks its a question of when someones sticks a finger in our eye again. i am reminded how outrageous the idea of a nearly sychronus assault on multiple targets within the us was regarded a few years back.
 
This Thread Looks Like to much

Xmass Cheer :banghead: and the horse is Dead.:what:
 
i just can't get over the quoted FN. not only did the ATF agent spew BS but the reported could'nt even write up the spew correctly.....

as for a .50 BMG taking down an aircraft, i have a question...... (BTW i know nothing about plans and flying other then airports suck and i like the window seat) wouldn't you have to either kill the pilet or pretty much blow the plan to bits? i thought a pilot was supposed to be able to land a plan even if the engines were gone.......... and i can't see how that shot would be easy........
 
cassandrasdaddy Do you really think that you can look at the blueprint for an airliner, point to one component, and say, "This, hit this and the plane will blow up, muahahah!"

You can't, they're VERY safe. Hell even the pilot isn't necessary in modern planes, they don't even touch controls to land the damned things unless weather is bad (official policy).


So humor us and tell us what you think is going to happen that a .50 caliber bullet will do that a .30 won't.


Because THAT is what this discussion is.

If you're thinking of people firing upwards at airliners passing low overhead to land, well guess what 30.06 goes to 10,000 feet. You can get AP and tracer 30.06 as well.

So ANY argument you can make that semi-auto or bolt-action .50's will be used against airliners that ARE NOT STATIONARY I would like to see.
 
a 777 has two engines no jet engine i know of is gonna like a 50 hit. were it my goal i could forsee someone in the takeoff pattern at national being able to wait till after the go no go point on the runway being able to tag em both. that leaves the one of the worlds worst gliders with no place good to go. full fuel load. if you were real good 2 guys wait till the wonderful noise abatement procedure starts. where they do the 2 things a rookie pilot is taught not to do on take off turn at the same time they reduce power. score a hit then. its higher and a lil faster still no place good to go.on approach you could almost set up an automated firing position. they all fly down the same narrow slot. or try to anyway.rember the famous siox city crash? that was after ONE blade came apart in the turbines and thrashed the hydraulics. how many baldes would a 1/2 inch piece of lead break off? use a couple shooters. is it better than a sam? heck no but you don't have to try as hard to get the weapon(s) any mcveigh wannabe could give it a shot.
 
Comparing a bolt or semi-auto .50 BMG to the multiple gun platform of a fighter aircraft is foolish
First off I haven't even brought up single shot bolt actions, and my mention of the M82A2 which was designed specically for engaging Soviet Helicopters resulted in all the talk about WW2 Dogfights.
I haven't compared any .50 ground fire to .50 use in Dogfights beyond pointing out that thousands of Enemy Bombers and fighters have gone down from both, and that its not impossible to hit even a fast moving ground attack fighter using a single mounted Heavy Machinegun. Not easy but certainly not impossible. Helicopters have proven to be much more vulnerable to ground fire, even hand held unguided RPG launchers as in Mogadishu.

But we're discussing hitting a moving warplane target with a bolt/semi action 25lb.+, 5' long rifle at around 500 yards
I've been speaking of slow and low civilian and police Choppers not "Warplanes, and again no mention of bolt actions from me.
I've pointed out the Barrett M82A2 designed for engaging Military Choppers, and the "Soft Mount" widely available for the Barrett M82 as possible alternatives to the M2HB which is a weel known and proven killer of even lightly armored WW2 attack planes.

And, in case you haven't noticed, most of our choppers and all of our fixed wings sport a degree of armour over critical areas......In addition to multiply redundent systems..........
Obviously they would, but beside the point since Civilian and most Police choppers don't. Also many of the older Military Choppers have no such protection.

BTW, civilian aircraft sport most of the 'triple redundancy'
Gee I guess thats why no civilian aircraft has ever crashed, (wheres the sarcasim Icon?)
Never seen a helicopter either Civilian or Military with extra tail rotors and transmission casings that automaticaly take over when a round makes mincemeat of the originals. Maybe youre thinking of the CGI Batplane. Or the Terminator 2 Liquid metal robot that forms new parts instantly.
and have significantly less 'critical density' than do warplanes..... >MW
"Critical Density" is a buzzword if I ever heard one.
The Civilian Chopper has the same layout as its military counterpart and no armored protection.
I've never heard of any civilian chopper being fitted with Rotors especially designed to absorb ground fire, like the Soviet Hind and hopefully our own attack choppers.
The vulnerable components are bunched up directly under the rotor and make a pretty large target.
Helicopters hover, thats their main purpose in using them to check out drug plantations and spot Cocaine labs in the countryside.
They also come in very slowly when landing teams of officers to check out an area or make a raid.
Easy meat for a soft mount Barrett or even easier for a M2HB.
sans benefit of tracer ammo to aid in aim correction
Check the link at the top of the page, they'll sell you all the tracer you want.

Millwright, just as a few others on this thread you've been rebutting a position I've not taken and answering arguments not made.

The formularized list of answers to common gun grabber arguments have become a meme just as their arguments have always been. You can't support your position by copying their tactics and falling into the same trap they already have.

Now if anyone wants to answer the actual questions posed, feel free, it will be a nice change of pace.
 
#1) you assume turbines to be very delicate.

#2)you assume it's easy to hit an airplane at long distance that is moving faster than cars on the highway, in a very specific component.

#3)you assume that you can get within 2 miles of the airplane in question. Some people are slow, but even they might notice you sneaking around with your 30 pound rifle as tall as you are on an airfield that's pretty lacking in terms of cover and concealment.


Oh yea and #4) it's going to be hard to hit both engines if you are looking at a side profile... And if you're looking head-on that means the distances involved will be even larger, and there's liable to be some problems with air turbulence and such.
 
Roswell we respect your opinion. But just for kicks go to the scrap-metal yard and pick up some various pieces of metal. Then shoot them. What rifle wouldn't penetrate critical civilian helicopter components? And pretty much every rifle would be handier and quicker handling than a Barret whilst dong so.
 
most of our choppers and all of our fixed wings sport a degree of armour over critical areas......In addition to multiply redundent systems..........
"Most of our choppers" is the key phrase here.
The Mexicans are not using "our choppers".
They're most likely using Alouette IIIs.
In addition, whether more .30s is better than less .50s is moot. .50s do the job. The drug lords know this and are buying them.
 
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