Fingerprinting & CCW Permits???

[Ole Humpback]

Why do you have to submit fingerprints for a CCW permit? Furthermore, what legal grounds do local, state, & federal agencies have for requiring biometric data for a permit? They already have my SSN, DLN, DOB, Address, Age, Weight, Hair/Eye Color. So what purpose do fingerprints actually serve?

If I didn't have to submit to fingerprinting, I'd go ahead and get a CCW. No, I've not broken the law and AFAIK I have no wants & warrants out for me (had to pass a criminal background check to be able to sign the lease to my apartment), I just don't understand or approve of fingerprinting for no good reason at all.

 

[Bigkrackers]

Supposedly, your prints are used to see if any crimes can be links to said prints. There are several databases where they could be cross referenced. Also, your print files are supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. Not sure how long or if that is an individual state requirement.

 

[bikemutt]

Imagine the hew and outcry if the state was careless and issued a concealed carry permit to a prohibited person who went on to become infamous.

They're putting their reputation on the line when they vouch for your reputation.

They simply want to be assured their trust is well placed.

 

[F-111 John]

I was in the USAF after high school, so my finger prints have been "in the system" since 1977. I don't have anything against being fingerprinted, I have a complaint against the cost charged by my local police (as allowed by my state) and see it as a tax I must pay to exercise my rights.

 

[joeq]

Sorry, but if I have to choose fingerprinting or no CHL I'll gladly get fingerprinted. I'm not a criminal and could care less about being printed. I've been printed for work related reasons before anyway. Having my CHl was a good enough reason for me to go along with the states guidelines.

 

[duns]

Finger prints are just a way of identifying someone. Other ways are computer face recognition, palm prints, iris recognition, and DNA. Unless you object to being identified, I don't see why you would object to a particular technology for doing so provided it did you no harm.

As an immigrant to the USA, I've been finger printed at each visa application and visa renewal, and at my green card application. When I apply for my citizenship shortly, I'm sure I will be finger printed again. I had no issue with being finger printed in connection with my CHL application.

The best bit is this -- I joined the Global Entry Scheme (after being fingerprinted, background checked, photographed, and interviewed by Customs and Border Protection). This means that when I enter the USA, I no longer have to go through the immigration line (which can be extremely long -- hours long on occasion) but go to a kiosk where I place four fingers on the finger print reader and the machine prints me a little card that I show to the security guard as I go through a special exit from the immigration hall, no questions asked by a human being. The card also gets me through a special line at customs saving delay there too. Hardly anyone is in the Scheme yet and my local airport has lots of those kiosks so I've yet to have to wait in line for a kiosk. I get through immigration now in minutes. As I travel abroad a lot, I'm really happy to have been finger printed.

 

[newbuckeye]

I've been printed so many times I lost count! At least they are mostly scanned in instead of done with ink and a 10 print card like when i was rolling them. IIRC, Ohio only took thumbs and all 4 fingers together, without rolling each finger individually......

 

[smalls]

You won't get your ccw because they want your fingerprints?

I've got tinfoil hats for sale, cheap... PM me.

Seriously, it's not that big of a deal. Yeah, it pisses me off , cause it's unconstitutional. But I got over it because unfortunately that's how it works for now.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the state?

Whatever happened to the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty?

You should not have to prove you are not a criminal, the state should have to prove you are before they can deny your Constitutional right to bear arms.

 

[medalguy]

As stated, the issuing authority is issuing you a permit and thereby stating that they have conducted a complete and thorough criminal background check and you have nothing at all in your background to cause concern. In many states, this permit allows you to fill out a 4473 and walk out with a firearm so they really DO want to know all about your background.

what legal grounds do local, state, & federal agencies have for requiring biometric data for a permit?

They have legal authority because your state legislature codified it into the law, that's what grounds they have.

 

[Bigkrackers]

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the state?

Whatever happened to the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty?

You should not have to prove you are not a criminal, the state should have to prove you are before they can deny your Constitutional right to bear arms.

And how, exactly, would you suggest the state go about proving your innocence?

 

[Bubba613]

These days it is hard to get any kind of job dealing with kids, like teacher, without getting fingerprinted. The fingerprint is part of the background check. I have a HCP, 2 FFLs, and a full auto weapon. So I've been fingerprinted plenty. So what?

 

[Midwest]

I don't believe Kentucky fingerprints for the conceal carry permit.

 

[MedWheeler]

I've been printed by two law enforcement agencies, one EMS outfit, and one school district, all of for whom I've worked. I've also been printed for enlistment in the US Army. Never did I feel like I was "submitting to the man" over them. I had no issue with them for my carry license.
By holding out, you fail in a big to "count" for our side, as statistics are kept on the number of law-abiding-citizens who carry firearms without wreaking havoc on society. The higher the number recorded, the better our argument. Also, if you choose to carry unlawfully and are caught, it will actually count against our side, as you then become a "gun crime" statistic, even if no other crime was committed. Just something to think about.

 

[deadin]

I guess the next step will be to complain that what right do "they" have to put my picture on my DL.

 

[zxcvbob]

I don't want my fingerprints in the system where they can come back to bite me someday with a false positive at a crime scene. I know they're not supposed to be stored; yeah, right. That's too juicy a piece of data not to secret it away somewhere.

 

[bikemutt]

I don't want my fingerprints in the system where they can come back to bite me someday with a false positive at a crime scene. I know they're not supposed to be stored; yeah, right. That's too juicy a piece of data not to secret it away somewhere.

Tell you what, if you could find an example where they entered your fingerprints into a government database without your knowledge and permission, you'd be filthy rich after the civil rights violation trial.

 

[Sol]

out of the 71,000,000 criminal prints IAFIS has and the additional 30,000,000 civilian prints I find it hard to believe that CCW prints aren't stored

 

[Owen Sparks]

When you buy a permit what you are really doing is paying to have yourself investigated.
Again, the burden of proof should be on the state before they deny your Constitutional rights.

The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution states that no person shall be "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" nor shall he be "compelled to be a witness against himself."

That is what applying for a permit does, it violates the 5A both ways by putting the burden of proving your innocents on you and it compels you to testify against yourself by answering questions that might disqualify or incriminate you.

The Filth Amendment also says that you may not “be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”

If the state does not want you to exercise the enumerated Constitutional right of bearing arms (which is a LIBERTY) the state should have to prove you unfit in court with witnesses and evidence just like they have to do to before they can deprive you of any other constitutional right.

Can you name just ONE other Constitutionally enumerated right that you have to prove yourself worthy to exercise? Of course you can’t. There is no such thing as a free speech license or a worship permit. We don’t have laws against possessing unregistered Bibles or criminal statutes against removing the serial number from one. Should you have to submit fingerprints and pass a background test before posting a political opinion on the internet? Of course not, that would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

 

[Ryanxia]

Live somewhere else. I didn't have to get fingerprinted. I don't have a local PD so I had to mail in my application to the state. Sent them my application, picture and of course some green and have my CCW

 

[Jim K]

I have been finger printed so often that it doesn't really matter to me. The last time, the "officer" botched the job three times, almost breaking my fingers, until I finally told her to just let me do it so I could go to lunch. She started in about all her training until finally her sergeant (who knew me) told her to just let me do it and I gave them a good set of cards.

And that was for a security clearance update. I have no idea what she would have done with someone less cooperative, like the fighting drunks I dealt with as a sheriffs deputy.

Jim

 

[JohnD13]

In NY you get fingerprinted. For a pistol license, for a state job, for a security job, or for a job in some industrial sites. If I haven't been printed 10 times, I'd be surprised. At least it looks like we're going to get rid of the ballistic database, so at least our handguns won't have to be "printed" anymore.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Why do you have to submit fingerprints for a CCW permit?

Because they are required. There is check box on the form that says "Fingerprints?" That is the only reason the government paper pushers need. "Serving a purpose" never even enters into the discussion.

Just like "they say" you don't have to submit your SS # to anyone ... unless of course you want a credit card, mortgage, any bank loan, yadda yadda yadda.

 

[Teachu2]

"Liberty" in this context doesn't mean freedom to do whatever you view as a right - it means you cannot be imprisoned for an unreasonable time without being charged with a crime - like carrying a concealed handgun without a valid permit...

 

[Ole Humpback]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin said this. I can't for the life of me figure out what purpose my prints serve. I've not been printed before & have committed no crime, which means my prints aren't in any system which means they wouldn't match any prints in the system. What do they need the fingerprint card for then?

And for the record, I will never carry unless it's legal for me to do so. As a law abiding citizen with no record, I have no desire to go to jail for any reason whatsoever, especially for something like this. What I have a problem with is submitting myself to an investigation to prove that I am not a criminal. Truely, what did happen to innocent until proven guilty? Why is it I am assumed to be a law breaker and treated as such until they can prove that I really am innocent?

If its no prints, no CCW; I'll skip the CCW thank you. When constitutional carry is allowed, I'll carry if I see fit to do so.