First 1000yd match

[digger658]

My first 1k yd match is in a month and I need some answers please. I'll be using my Rem700 in .308 for this one.

1) Need a good starting load for the 168 or 175 gr SMK. Which is better for 1k?

2) How would I practice at 100 yds?

3) If zeroed at 100 yds how many 1/4" clicks up to reach 1k yds?

4) My need a 15 or 20 MOA scope base, where can I get one on a budget?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Jim Watson]

175.
Some ranges will not allow the 168 SMK at 1000 at all.

A near-top load of Varget, H4895, or Re15 will normally shoot well. I am using 44 gr of Varget for the 175 SMK.

Only thing you can practice at 100 yards is technique; position, aim, and fire. Get out to 1000 and the wind becomes a huge factor not seen close up.

My load in my rifle (old barrel) was 33 MOA from 100 to 1000. You will need a 20 MOA base. Brownells has them, the Farrell at $87.45 is the least expensive.

 

[USSR]

1) Need a good starting load for the 168 or 175 gr SMK. Which is better for 1k?

Forget the 168 SMK. It was designed for 300 meter shooting, and unless you drive it EXTREMELY fast, it will go transsonic at 1k. The 175 SMK is a good bullet; anything over 2600fps will get you there.

2) How would I practice at 100 yds?

Practice from the position your match is shot in (i.e. if F Class, shoot from the prone position).

3) If zeroed at 100 yds how many 1/4" clicks up to reach 1k yds?

Think MOA, not "clicks". Shooting a 175 SMK at 2600 - 2700fps, you will need somewhere between 36 and 40 MOA from your 100 yard zero. I would suggest that prior to match, you sight your rifle in so that it shoots 38 inches high at 100 yards. This should put you on the paper at 1k.

4) My need a 15 or 20 MOA scope base, where can I get one on a budget?

Check TPS.

Don

 

[Howard Roark]

Jim beat me to the punch. Don't bother with 168s at 1K.

Be sure to use good brass and a match primer. You will need to push the load to the ragged edge to make it supersonic with a 26" barrel.

 

[atek3]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=133886

according to Zak Smith, shooting the 155 gr Lapua Scenar is the dominant strategy for 1k w/ 308.

atek3

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree, when my inventory of 175 SMK is shot up, I will be going to Scenars.
But that was not an option in the O.P.

 

[digger658]

Some ranges will not allow the 168 SMK at 1000 at all.

Jim, How come and why would 155 do better? I've got 500 of the 168 smk's and not one 155 or 175. Guess I'll have to go get a $35 box and see how they do.

The 20moa sight base is on order.

Thanks

 

[Howard Roark]

How come and why would 155 do better

Because the 168s are too short to be stable and supersonic at 1K. This means they are tumbling in flight and hitting all over the place being a hazzard to the pit crew.

175s have the weight and the length a higher BC and can be driven fast enough to make 1K stable and supersonic.

The 155s need a slow twist barrel like a 1-13 or 1-14. They can be driven even faster than 175 or 168s for a higher BC, to be supersonic and stable at 1K.

 

[USSR]

The 155s need a slow twist barrel like a 1-13 or 1-14.

Not the 155gr Lapua Scenars. They are a very long bullet (as long as a 175SMK) due to air space in the nose, and it is bullet length not bullet weight that determines optimal twist rate. Normally a long bullet is heavy, but not in this case. A 1-12" twist will work fine with a 155gr Scenar.

Don

 

[Zak Smith]

Wow, I posted a lot of reload data to that thread!

The BC of the 155 Lapua is 0.508, and my real-world data seems to track the computer prediction pretty well. The "reason to" use this is that high BC + high velocity = long range win. For comparison, the 175SMK BC is just about the same (starts within 0.01 point) but is usually shot 100-250 fps slower from the same barrel length.

-z

 

[Howard Roark]

Wow, I posted a lot of reload data to that thread!

Yes you did.

Have you seen the series in PS on the various palma bullet comparisons? It was interesting but did not include the new Berger 155.5bullet. They have been shooting lights out here.

On another note I sent off a dummy round today to Dave Kiff to grind for me a new.260 reamer. Nothing fancy, just a leade angle to match up to the VLDs.

 

[digger658]

I got my EGW 20moa base mounted. Loaded up some Hornady 178gr. AMAX being pushed with 44.7gr. of Varget and seated .180 offer the lands. Heading for the range after church to to see what they will do at 230 yards.

I'm pumped. Bet they kick like a mule

Thanks to everyone for the help and info.

 

[Slamfire]

Jim, How come and why would 155 do better? I've got 500 of the 168 smk's and not one 155 or 175. Guess I'll have to go get a $35 box and see how they do.

I have shot 168's at 1000 yards, and was pulling targets for friends who were also shooting 168's. My bullets, and their bullets tumbled before they got to the target.

Palma shooters use 30” barrels, thin cases, and stuff them full of powder to push a 155 to something like 2900 fps. They are willing to use a case once. If you don’t push a 155 close to 3000 fps, you won’t do well on target. I do not know the lower boundary for velocity.

I copied a Long Range shooters recommendation for 175’s and Varget. I loaded up 44.0 grains and shot it in a Highpower match at 600 yards. I shot a 196-7X, so it did well. Later I was curious to see just how fast the bullets were going, and I fired the last of that lot over a chronograph.

My lot of Varget must be real slow as I was hoping to get velocities closer to 2700 fps. But the average was 2600 fps. Still, that will stay supersonic at 1000 yards.

Rifle was 26" barreled 1:10 Ruger M77

175 Sierra Matchking 44.0 grs Varget wtd Lot 4295 W/W new cases Fed 210S
OAL 2.800"
30 April 2008 T = 71 °F

Ave Vel = 2606
Std Dev = 13
ES = 28
High = 2621
Low = 2593
N = 4

 

[Zak Smith]

Palma shooters use 30” barrels, thin cases, and stuff them full of powder to push a 155 to something like 2900 fps. They are willing to use a case once. If you don’t push a 155 close to 3000 fps, you won’t do well on target. I do not know the lower boundary for velocity.

Works better if you use better 155gr bullets.

Also, a 155 going 2900 fps does not yield cases that cannot be fired again. I have Lapua .308 cases which have been fired many times from 2850-2925 and they're just fine.

For information, here is the 1000-yard velocity data for the 155 Lapua, vs. muzzle velocity.

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     250     500     750    1000 | YARDS
155 LAP           0.508 3000 >    3000    2549    2142    1777    1460 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2975 >    2975    2527    2122    1758    1445 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2950 >    2950    2504    2101    1740    1430 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2925 >    2925    2481    2081    1722    1416 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2900 >    2900    2459    2061    1704    1401 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2875 >    2875    2436    2040    1686    1386 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2850 >    2850    2414    2020    1668    1372 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2825 >    2825    2391    1999    1650    1357 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2800 >    2800    2368    1979    1632    1343 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2775 >    2775    2346    1959    1614    1329 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2750 >    2750    2323    1939    1597    1315 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2725 >    2725    2300    1918    1579    1302 | velocity (fps)
155 LAP           0.508 2700 >    2700    2278    1898    1562    1289 | velocity (fps)

In short, a lot of shooters are using the 155 Lapuas for 1000 yards, without black magic or dangerous loads. I've made hits out as far as 1340 with this bullet.

 

[Slamfire]

Lapua is certainly claiming a high Ballistic coefficient for their 155's. 4th Edition Sierra manual gives a value of 0.450. The 175 SMK only gets a high of .505 above 2800 fps. Below that, they give 0.496.

I have been watching BC's from different companies and have observed wildly different BC's for essentially, the same bullet.

I really don't give a flip. What matters is how it groups on target.

 

[Zak Smith]

I've shot thousands of them and they track the data.

The 155 SMK is short. The 155 Lapua is at least as long as the 175 SMK.

 

[rsilvers]

Heavier bullets generally have the least wind drift, even though you cannot launch them as fast. I know there is a feeling that the one place this breaks down is when comparing the Lapua 155. The thought is that this bullet has a BC higher than the Sierra 175 MK, and is also lighter so you can push it faster - making it perform better at longer ranges. It seems like an excellent bullet for when you have to use a 155, but it does not seem to have less wind drift at long range than a 175 MK and certainly not a 220 or 240 MK.

The problem is that the 'advertised' BC is only for velocities above 3000 fps - where the bullet spends little to no time in flight. If you launch the bullet at 2860 and it is 1380 at 1000 yards, the average velocity is 2120. The true average BC of this bullet is about 0.465.

The SMK 175 has a higher (actual, not advertised) BC than the Lapua 155 at any specific velocity according to real-world testing.

At 1000 yards with a 24 inch barrel, this is what I compute for equal chamber pressure:

Bullet, fpe at 1000, wind drift inches (10mph), drop in inches.

Sierra 240 893 78.2 500.4

Sierra 220 793 84.6 477.2

Sierra 175 604 96.1 416.4

Lapua 155. 518 98.5 386.7

So if the goal is the least wind, then use the Sierra 240 or 220 (which would want a 1:8 twist).

The Sierra 240 has 43 MOA drop at 1000 yards if you zero at 100 yards, but if you have a 20 MOA base, that is only 23 MOA on your scope.


Here is the data for a Sierra 142 (.260) launched at the same pressure from a 24 inch barrel at 2764 fps:

Sierra 142 629 76.7 362.5

It outperforms the Sierra 240 for wind (by a hair) and the Lapua 155 for drop. It crushes .308 by combining the two extremes of long-range .308 bullet performance - and has less recoil.

But, .308 with a 1:8 twist can match it for wind! .308 shooters should switch to 1:8 twist and 220, 230, or 240 grain bullets on a mass exodus.

 

[Zak Smith]

What muzzle velocities did you use for the various loads?

Everything else aside, in practical shooting at least, there is benefit from shooting a load that is "balanced", not sacrificing too much drop to less wind (nor vice versa). I am aware of some shooters using very heavy bullets in .308 for KD shooting; however, relatively extreme drop rates can be problematic in the presence of ranging uncertainty.

At each of the last two years' Steel Safari matches, the top .308 shooters used the 155 at over 2900 fps, with no other .308 shooters in the top 10.

If a .308 shooter is going to unscrew his barrel to change twist, he might as well put a .260 barrel on.

 

[rsilvers]

I would have to go back and redo it all to see as I did not save them, but I set QL to 58,000 psi and 2.8 OAL for each one. Actual results will vary - but the main point was that the Lapua 155 BC is only over 0.500 for velocities over 3000 fps and for the purpose of ballistic software a BC of 0.465 is going to track better. Bryan Litz book has a list of measured BCs of lots of bullets and he documented this bullet at various velocities.

 

[Soupy44]

To practice, shoot a 22 at 100 yards and try to get 1in groups.

 

[westerngrizzly]

you might want to try one of the VLD bullets from either Berger or JLK. The JLK 175 VLD has an advertised BC of .545.
I know someone who shoots the berger 155.5 VLD in palma and he does great with it.

 

[rsilvers]

Lapua's BC was tested at 11% less than its advertised value. It still had the highest actual BC of any 155.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28259179/...an-Litz-Testing-of-the-Lapua-308-155gr-Scenar

 

[Offfhand]

Wow! Great info! But glad I didn't read this years ago when I was shooting 168's in .308 at 1000. Otherwise I wouldn't have won any of the tournaments I did.