First 9mm loads using TiteGroup

[vaalpens]

This weekend I tested my first TiteGroup loads in 9mm. Testing did not go that good, which probably explains the lack of very good groupings. The chrono results where very good with ES numbers from 13 to 22.

There were a couple of contributing factors from this weekend that probably explains why I did not see any very good grouping. I left my rest at home, so i had to use one of my ammo cans. It was difficult to get comfortable behind the pistol, so maybe it contributed to the larger groupings. I use a pistol scope mount, and found this weekend that it seems to come loose. It seems the the mount is a tighter fit on my P229's vs the picatinny rail on this SP2022.

Please note that testing was done at 15yards using a scope and an ammo can as a rest. The scope was not zeroed, so POI is where the scope was aiming after I mounted it.

TiteGroup definitely shows some promise and is an easy shooting load.

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.065"
RMR, 124gr, TCFPMW, TiteGroup, 3.6gr, CCI500
Average: 933
ES: 22
SD: 8.2
Force: 240
PF: 115
Velocities: 931, 936, 920, 936, 942
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.23"
Test Date: 10/04/2020

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.065"
RMR, 124gr, TCFPMW, TiteGroup, 3.7gr, CCI500
Average: 960
ES: 17
SD: 6.4
Force: 254
PF: 119
Velocities: 957, 963, 962, 952, 969
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.78"
Test Date: 10/04/2020


9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.065"
RMR, 124gr, TCFPMW, TiteGroup, 3.8gr, CCI500
Average: 969
ES: 20
SD: 8.5
Force: 258
PF: 120
Velocities: 976, 968, 979, 959, 963
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.07"
Test Date: 10/04/2020

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.065"
RMR, 124gr, TCFPMW, TiteGroup, 3.9gr, CCI500
Average: 986
ES: 13
SD: 4.9
Force: 268
PF: 122
Velocities: 986, 979, 989, 984, 992
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.61"
Test Date: 10/04/2020

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.065"
RMR, 124gr, TCFPMW, TiteGroup, 4gr, CCI500
Average: 1013
ES: 17
SD: 6.9
Force: 282
PF: 125
Velocities: 1009, 1023, 1017, 1006, 1010
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.85"
Test Date: 10/04/2020

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: FC
COL: 1.065"
RMR, 124gr, TCFPMW, TiteGroup, 4.1gr, CCI500
Average: 1039
ES: 19
SD: 6.9
Force: 297
PF: 128
Velocities: 1042, 1040, 1048, 1040, 1029
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.61"
Test Date: 10/04/2020

 

[whughett]

Only way to know for sure, invest in a Ramson Rest. Looks good to me.

 

[Pat Riot]

He said “lack of good groupings”

If I ever get groups like that I will be so happy. Of course I always shoot standing with no rest but I would be pretty happy to get groups like that.

 

[markr6754]

When my "lack of good groupings" become that good I'll start posting pics too!

Nice shooting! Keep up the "bad" work.

 

[vaalpens]

Only way to know for sure, invest in a Ramson Rest. Looks good to me.

That is a true statement regarding the RansomRest. The RansomRest is not that expensive. I think the biggest stumbling block actually is having a permanent mounting place for the RansomRest.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

So, you're complaining about group size.

Because, at 15 yds you can put only 4 out of 5 shots in someone's eye ?

 

[vaalpens]

When my "lack of good groupings" become that good I'll start posting pics too!

Nice shooting! Keep up the "bad" work.

Thanks for the kind words.

A good grouping is what you think it is. Over time my expectation of grouping sizes have changed, but so has my testing methodology.

 

[vaalpens]

So, you're complaining about group size.

Because, at 15 yds you can put only 4 out of 5 shots in someone's eye ?

No, I'm not complaining. I just expected something better from a powder named TiteGroup. Some days you feel that testing went smoothly and you saw some good results. Yesterday I just felt that testing wasn't the smooth, so I am accepting the blame for now.

 

[vaalpens]

He said “lack of good groupings”

If I ever get groups like that I will be so happy. Of course I always shoot standing with no rest but I would be pretty happy to get groups like that.

I actually did some accuracy testing standing, which I was very happy with. With this test I used my 357sig and started at 5yards an took one shot. paced back another 5 yards and took another shot. This was done up to 25 yards, 5 shots total. Sorry, another 5 shot group. It was only a 2.85" grouping, but I was happy with. It is difficult with regular P229 open sights. Hopefully next time I can tighten up that grouping.

 

[Charlie98]

I don't like TiteGroup, but I'll readily admit it's a pretty good powder in 9mm.

4.2grn TG and a 124grn Berrys gives me 1050fps in my 3.6" Kahr CW9, and 1100fps in my FIL's Taurus PT92. I don't really load 9mm for accuracy, not out of the pistols I shoot it in, but it's reasonable.

 

[JJFitch]

I had trouble loving HTG in 9mm. I found my Kart barrel likes velocities above 1025 fps. Once I found the sweet spot it's OK inside 25 yards with lighter plated bullets.

How are you resting your gun on the ammo box? I have found and observed others tend to try to hold the gun down and get vertical stringing! If I rest my wrist on something soft like a pistol box on it's side and a rolled up towel or sand bag the groups tighten up a bit!

Nice groups though!

 

[jmorris]

You don’t need a ransom rest to evaluate loads, you do need to be somewhat repeatable and have a range of things to compare against.

If you don’t shoot a one hole group at 15 yards with a certain load that doesn’t mean it’s no good.

However, if you shoot one ragged hole groups at 15 yards with every decent load you have come up with and this is the one that is an outlier, you would have more reasoning to think it’s less than good.

I would suggest a range of different bullets, weight and manufacture, if accuracy is you 9mm goad, I’d pick more JHP’s than anything else.

 

[Trey Veston]

I get decent results with Titegroup, but prefer Ramshot Silhouette. I shoot at 25 yards and consider 2" or better acceptable for a carry gun.

My P365 met the criteria using 5.0 grains of Ramshot...



My G19 really likes the Power Pistol, but it is loud and proud...

 

[five.five-six]

I get decent results with Titegroup, but prefer Ramshot Silhouette. I shoot at 25 yards and consider 2" or better acceptable for a carry gun.

My P365 met the criteria using 5.0 grains of Ramshot...

View attachment 946953

My G19 really likes the Power Pistol, but it is loud and proud...

View attachment 946954

Are are shooting those groups at 50'?

If so, I really need to up my game.

 

[Trey Veston]

Are are shooting those groups at 50'?

If so, I really need to up my game.

75' and with a rest.

 

[whughett]

That is a true statement regarding the RansomRest. The RansomRest is not that expensive. I think the biggest stumbling block actually is having a permanent mounting place for the RansomRest.

Considered one years ago, at the time the need to have the various mounts for different hand guns was a deterrent. Settled for a chronograph instead.

 

[five.five-six]

75' and with a rest.

Although I have only tried a few times, I have always been more accurate standing than with a rest.


that is some dang nice shooting either way. Most can’t do that with a rifle at 75

 

[lordpaxman]

That’s some nice shooting! I’m convinced it was the gun...
I have a competition load I used to shoot and it was 4.1gr TG with the 124gr RMR FPMW but much longer COL at 1.120”. That was in a P226 at a 130 PF but my 365 could handle them as well. Are you set on such a short COL and perhaps a bit longer COL for you would tighten up those groups, should you so choose to?

 

[vaalpens]

I don't like TiteGroup, but I'll readily admit it's a pretty good powder in 9mm.

4.2grn TG and a 124grn Berrys gives me 1050fps in my 3.6" Kahr CW9, and 1100fps in my FIL's Taurus PT92. I don't really load 9mm for accuracy, not out of the pistols I shoot it in, but it's reasonable.

Thanks for sharing your load data and experience with TiteGroup. I have to revisit some of my TiteGroup loads, and will probably go to 4.2gr since I stopped at 4.1gr. The SD and ES numbers were still good at 4.1gr, so I don't see any issue going a bit higher.

 

[Charlie98]

Thanks for sharing your load data and experience with TiteGroup. I have to revisit some of my TiteGroup loads, and will probably go to 4.2gr since I stopped at 4.1gr. The SD and ES numbers were still good at 4.1gr, so I don't see any issue going a bit higher.

I don't have my OAL data in front of me, but if memory serves, I was seating them long. Be careful working up to that.

EDIT: I seated the Rainer PRN 124's at 1.135"

 

[vaalpens]

I had trouble loving HTG in 9mm. I found my Kart barrel likes velocities above 1025 fps. Once I found the sweet spot it's OK inside 25 yards with lighter plated bullets.

How are you resting your gun on the ammo box? I have found and observed others tend to try to hold the gun down and get vertical stringing! If I rest my wrist on something soft like a pistol box on it's side and a rolled up towel or sand bag the groups tighten up a bit!

Nice groups though!

Thanks for the information. I did see some vertical stringing which I attributed to the scope mount not being tight enough. I rested it on the ammo box, then added a towel later. It took a while for me to get semi comfortable, so I would think I definitely had an impact on the accuracy.

 

[vaalpens]

You don’t need a ransom rest to evaluate loads, you do need to be somewhat repeatable and have a range of things to compare against.

If you don’t shoot a one hole group at 15 yards with a certain load that doesn’t mean it’s no good.

However, if you shoot one ragged hole groups at 15 yards with every decent load you have come up with and this is the one that is an outlier, you would have more reasoning to think it’s less than good.

I would suggest a range of different bullets, weight and manufacture, if accuracy is you 9mm goad, I’d pick more JHP’s than anything else.

Thanks for the comments and advice.

I think I have been somewhat repeatable, except when I leave my rest at home like this weekend. Not being comfortable behind the gun definitely had some impact on the accuracy. I definitely don't shoot a ragged hole with all my decent loads, but I do document and rank all my results. The best I did was a 1.07", which is ranked #151 with all my other results. So not very good. I am striving for around a .6" grouping, with lower than .6" very good for me. I haven't bought any JHP's lately, so maybe it is time to try them again.

 

[vaalpens]

I get decent results with Titegroup, but prefer Ramshot Silhouette. I shoot at 25 yards and consider 2" or better acceptable for a carry gun.

My P365 met the criteria using 5.0 grains of Ramshot...

View attachment 946953

My G19 really likes the Power Pistol, but it is loud and proud...

View attachment 946954

Thanks for your comments and sharing your load data.

Interesting that your Power Pistol load is 5.5gr with a 115gr bullet. My preferred Power Pistol load is 5.5gr or 5.6gr with a 124gr bullet.

So that is a 1" group at 75'. That is some excellent shooting I don't test a lot at 25yd, but the best I have done was a 1.120" with 357sig, not 9mm.

 

[vaalpens]

That’s some nice shooting! I’m convinced it was the gun...
I have a competition load I used to shoot and it was 4.1gr TG with the 124gr RMR FPMW but much longer COL at 1.120”. That was in a P226 at a 130 PF but my 365 could handle them as well. Are you set on such a short COL and perhaps a bit longer COL for you would tighten up those groups, should you so choose to?

Thanks for sharing your load information.

What type of accuracy do you see with your 4.1gr TH competition load?

 

[LiveLife]

I shoot at 25 yards and consider 2" or better acceptable for a carry gun.

So that is a 1" group at 75'

No. It would be 2" group at 75 feet.

1" group at 25 yards is doable by very few custom/match pistols.

For me, I consider 2" groups at 25 yards by factory pistol and good ammunition to be very accurate and if a pistol consistently produced 3" groups at 25 yards off hand, consider good enough for carry. (And for PCC, 1.5"-2" groups at 50 yard accuracy is good enough for defensive distance use)

Keep in mind that it's not the smallest group a pistol produces rather average/largest group the pistol is capable of that will matter for defensive shooting (as hammered into our brain by jmorris and Bart B. etc.)

FYI, here's a listing of what various pistols are capable of at 25 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10940688

Nighthawk Custom Hi-Power (25 yards) 0.74" to 1.71" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/4/11/tested-nighthawk-custom-hi-power/

EAA Witness Elite 1911 (25 yards) 0.82" to 1.41" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/5/tested-eaa-witness-elite-1911-polymer-pistol/

Lipsey's Vickers Tactical Glock 17 (25 yards) 1.00" to 1.80" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/3/23/tested-lipsey-s-vickers-tactical-glock-17/

Ruger PC carbine (50 yards) 1.13" to 1.42" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/2/tested-ruger-s-pc-carbine-and-security-9-pistol/

Sig P320 X-Five/VTAC (25 yards) 1.14" to 1.97" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/8/10/tested-sig-sauer-p320-x-series-pistols/

S&W M&P9 M2.0 Compact (25 yards) 1.22" to 3.64" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/11/30/tested-smith-wesson-mp9-m20-compact-pistol/

Remington R1 M1911 (25 yards) 1.24" to 2.99" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/1/13/the-remington-r1-m1911/

KRISS Vector Gen II SDP 9 (25 yards) 1.33" to 1.53" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/7/19/tested-kriss-usa-vector-gen-ii-sdp-9-mm-pistol/

S&W M&P9 M2.0 (25 yards) 1.33" to 2.36" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/22/tested-smith-wessons-mp-m20-pistol/

Sig P225 (25 yards) 1.38" to 2.43" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/22/tested-sig-sauer-p225-a1-nitron-compact-pistol/

Ruger SR1911 Target (25 yards) 1.46" to 3.23" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/1/9/tested-ruger-sr1911-target-pistol/

Sig P226 Legion Series (25 yards) 1.58" to 2.36" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/4/15/tested-sig-sauer-legion-series-p226-pistol/

Ruger Mark IV 22/45 Lite (25 yards) 1.82" to 2.00" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/3/3/tested-ruger-mark-iv-2245-lite-pistol/

FN 509 (25 yards) 1.88" to 2.06" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/6/26/tested-the-fn-509-pistol/

H&K VP9SK (25 yards) 1.97" to 2.23" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/5/tested-heckler-koch-s-vp9sk-pistol/

Beretta APX (25 yards) 2.30" to 2.47" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/7/25/tested-beretta-s-apx-pistol/

CZ P-10 C (25 yards) 2.40" to 3.02" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/6/tested-cz-p-10-c-pistol/

Kimber Camp Guard 10mm (25 yards) 2.41" to 2.69" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/11/tested-kimber-camp-guard-10-pistol/

Springfield XDM 4.5" OSP (25 yards) 2.46" to 2.80" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/3/21/tested-springfield-xdm-45-osp-9-mm-pistol/

Ruger American (25 yards) 2.48" to 2.89" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/12/29/tested-ruger-american-pistol/

PSA 1911 Stainless Two-Tone (25 yards) 2.51" to 2.89" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...to-state-armory-1911-two-tone-premium-pistol/

Walther PPQ M2 Q4 Tac (25 yards) 2.53" to 2.76" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/19/tested-walther-ppq-m2-q4-tac-9-mm-pistol/

Ruger Security 9 (25 yards) 2.63" to 3.15" - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/2/tested-ruger-s-pc-carbine-and-security-9-pistol/