First Time Reloading Part 2 - Case Resizing - Shoulder Bump

[sirgilligan]

This is part two of this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=757660

I setup my RCBS .223 Small Base Resizing die as per directions:
Put on shell holder, ran up to top, twisted the die down until it touched, then turned it 1/8th to 1/4th turn and set it.

I then resized some brass, getting a feel for how much lube, etc.

I have three different .223 rifles (actually they are 5.56 rifles), two semi-auto and one bolt action, so I am trying to make "generic" rounds that work in all three, thus the small base dies.

As I studied this I have learned how small .001" of an inch is and so I become concerned about shoulder setback during resizing. So, I ordered a Dillon case gauge for the .223 and the .30-06.

I put the case in and let it rest on its shoulder and the case head is below the max (high) and it is so close to the low I can't feel it, and when I look at it it seems to be at the low mark or maybe slightly below it. The case hasn't been trimmed yet so it protrudes out of the bottom of the case gauge. So, when I sit it on a flat surface the case raises up but the head is not above the high mark, it feels like it is dead even. The length of the case is 1.757".

My question is, is the shoulder setback too much and should I throw them out?



The lighting in the photo seems to accentuate the difference.

What do you all think?
Is that too much setback and throw those away?
Or maybe you think that it not excessive and I should continue to the next steps in reloading?

 

[Potatohead]

With my limited experience, I cant attest to the safety or danger of using it, but why not toss it and then adjust your sizing die so that your cases pass the gauge, or did you size a bunch of them before testing?

 

[silverbullet86]

Use a good straightedge on the "low" surface and if you can see light under it, you're sizing too far and you should discard those cases.

Readjust your sizing die until it just barely touches the shell plate, and see where you are. Adjust in very small turns (1/8th or less) until you are where you need to be.

In my mind, you will be better off to size your cases where they are nearly at the "top" of the gauge. Less stress/stretching of the brass, less chance of pierced primers, etc.

If you are not bumping the shoulder more than necessary, you can get several reloads out of your brass, usually until the necks split or the primer pockets loosen up.

I posted pics in another thread of some 223 cases I cut open after 3 or 4 firings, and there was no indication of them approaching incipient head separation (thinning of the walls about a 1/4" up the sides) because I bump the shoulders very little. Just enough to clear the top of my Lyman case gauge - I can usually feel the head above the lower step.

BTW, 1.757" case length is approaching max of 1.760". You won't really need to trim them to length 'this time' but you will on the next...

 

[Potatohead]

Yea, I'd screw it out a hair til i could feel it.

 

[sirgilligan]

but why not toss it and then adjust your sizing die so that your cases pass the gauge

That is what I am thinking unless someone states differently. I am not asking someone to take responsibility for the decision, just some explanation on why it would still be safe to use the brass. It is all once fired. I just read about fire-forming brass as well and it seems related, as suggested on another forum. I can give the brass to my cousin and he will make 300 blackout with it, so I don't care. I have more once fired brass, I have saved every shell case I have ever shot that I could find for my entire life.

Use a good straightedge on the "low" surface and if you can see light under it, you're sizing too far and you should discard those cases.

I will give that a try. From the photo and the small edge you can see, I am pretty sure there will be light.

Yep, there is light.

 

[witchhunter]

Sizing die adjustment is most important. Case life, accuracy and safety all depend on it.

 

[Reloadron]

Always hard doing this from a picture but to me the case looks a little short. While case gauges like this are useful they really only give you a Go/NoGo indication. Unless you are set up to measure the steps you really don't know what the case length is head to datum on the shoulder.

The die is a 7/8-14 thread pitch so each 1/8 turn of the die is about .0088" of change (not accounting for thread lash and slop).

Use a straight edge and look for light on the lower step. I would back the die out maybe 1/16th to 1/8th turn and see what you get.

Again, the case gauges like this do not give you any real numbers. The SAAMI specification for a 223 cartridge headspace is 1.466" Maximum - .007".

Ron

 

[Walkalong]

It looks like it is too deep. (Shoulder pushed back too far.) Hard to tell from the pic though.

 

[rcmodel]

I sgree.

Back off the die to only push the shoulder back far enough to be a frog-hair below the Max part of the gage.

Or, better yet?
To chamber fairly snugly in the tightest of your three rifles!

rc

 

[gamestalker]

I may be wrong about this, but from what I remember, the gauge is used to determine the acceptable standards of OD measurements, and head to datum off the shoulder, or bump. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but whether or not a case needs trimming is not something the case gauge determines, and therefore wouldn't effect how brass fits in the gauge?

As for shoulder bump, and since you are using SB dies, why not just bump the shoulders just enough to fit the shortest of the chambers you are loading for.

FYI, if your shortest head spaced chamber is more than .003" shorter than your longest chambers head space, your brass isn't going to last very long, and you might even experience premature case head separations in the longest chamber, if head space is significantly greater than the shortest one.


GS

 

[sirgilligan]

Thank you all. I will back the die off and do this in small steps. The brass will go to my cousin and he will turn it into 300 Blackout. So, no loss and lots learned.

Seriously, thank you all.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, then the next question I would present you is?

If your cousin is going to resize & expand it to .300 Blackout?

Why are you wearing it slick resizing it to .223 with Small base dies in the first place?

He can resize fired .223 brass to .300 Blackhawk in his .300 Blackhawk die to fit his rifles chamber his own self.
And do it better with unsized brass.

rc

 

[sirgilligan]

Well, then the next question I would present you is?

If your cousin is going to resize & expand it to .300 Blackout?

Why are you wearing it slick resizing it to .223 with Small base dies in the first place?

He can resize fired .223 brass to .300 Blackhawk in his .300 Blackhawk die to fit his rifles chamber his own self.
And do it better with unsized brass.

rc

I was resizing those for myself to shoot as .223. I have messed them up and can't undo the mistake. Instead of throwing the brass away I will give the brass to my cousin. That way they don't go to waste.

 

[rcmodel]

Ahh!!!

I misunderstood what I thought you said.

Sorry for my mistake.

That is the best use for them.

rc

 

[WestKentucky]

If bumped slightly too far then no big deal. When you shoot it the case will form to the chamber and will be fine for try #2,3,8,20.... But 223 is so common that it's hardly worth messing with it. Either way your ok.

 

[silverbullet86]

In response to Gamestalkers post, and just to clarify the dual use of the case gauge:

My Lyman case gauge is set up to also give an indication of the case length on the opposite end. I don't know if the Dillon the OP is using is also intended for that?

However, what he said at the end of his original post would be correct - if you don't hold the gauge up off a flat surface, you would get an incorrect reading, because a long case will poke through the other side and would raise the shell up.

So, to accurately measure the headspace/length to shoulder datum point, you MUST hold the gauge vertically up off any surface.

Once you determine if the headspace is correct, then you simply hold your finger over the shell and flip over the gauge and get a quick indication if your case is poking out the end and will need trimming.

Without digging out the instructions for my Lyman gauge, I can't remember what the gauge length is - probably 1.750". If the case pokes through, you really can't tell how much to trim, but if it's flush or slightly below, then you know you're good-to-go without trimming. Also, since you can't accurately visually determine .005"-.010" if the case pokes through by any significant amount you will have to measure with calipers to make sure you're not over 1.760" max length.

Again, I don't know about the Dillon one, but I assume it's intended to be used the same way as the Lyman...

 

[Elkins45]

Not giving advice here but I went through exactly the same thing 25 years ago when I started loading for 243. If they were mine I would not throw them out. I would reduce my charge (safely, with a powder that allows it) and seat the bullet so that it seats onto the lands and the bolt closes with just a bit of difficulty. That way you can blow the shoulder back forward to match your chamber. Afterwards they would need to be tested to see if they have stretched too much at the base.

How many cases are we talking about here? A handful or a thousand? If it's just a few then I wouldn't bother with the above, but if it's hundreds of them I would probably try to save them.

 

[Reloadron]

From our friends at Dillon:

How to use the Case Gage:
The way the case gage works is
this: Once you’ve made a preliminary
adjustment to your sizing die
drop the sized case all the way into
the case gage, Fig 1. Look at the
base of the case.
If the base of the case is below
the high step (see “B” Fig 2) and
above the low step (see “A” Fig 2)
then the sizing die is properly
adjusted. If the base of the case is
above the high step Fig 3, then you
will need to adjust the sizing die
down by turning it clockwise.
If the base at the case is below
low step Fig 4, then the sizing die
is adjusted down too far and needs
to be backed out by turning it
counter-clockwise (Note: this case
should be thrown away).
Once the sizing die is properly
adjusted, drop the properly sized
case back into the case gage and
look at the mouth of the case, Fig
5. If the case mouth is below the
high step (see “C” Fig 5) and above
the low step (see “D” Fig 5) then
the case is the proper length and
will not need to be trimmed. If the
case mouth is above the high step
Fig 6, then the case mouth needs to
be trimmed in order to reduce the
overall length of the case.

The referenced figures can be found here. See page 7 of the link for the case gauges.

Pretty much like the LE Wilson, Forrester and other case gauges of this type.

silverbullet86 pretty much nailed it.

Ron

 

[silverbullet86]

Thanks Ron! Good reference to the Dillon instructions! I didn't think of going to their site...

I DID however, get curious about my own Lyman gauge, so I dug it out and want to clarify one thing - a correction to what I said above - when flipping it over and checking case length, it is designed to be sitting on a flat surface.

MAN it is HARD to get a clear picture of these things!

 

[Potatohead]

How many cases are we talking about here? A handful or a thousand? If it's just a few then I wouldn't bother with the above, but if it's hundreds of them I would probably try to save them.

I think just one, so it's a toss-a-rama if Ive ever seen one.

Might seem like a goofy question since it's just one case, but I remember being real worried about this myself a few months ago and wanting to get to the bottom of how it worked and didnt, and what would work and wouldnt.

 

[sirgilligan]

I counted them. 110. I have plenty. Been saving brass my entire life.

I will give these to my cousin and he will make 300 Blackout.

 

[sirgilligan]

I remember being real worried about this myself a few months ago and wanting to get to the bottom of how it worked and didnt, and what would work and wouldnt.

Yes, I feel the same. When I have a proper understanding of how things work then I can make reasonable adjustments when something didn't go as planned.

But for now, I am a novice.

 

[Potatohead]

Keep pluggin. I usually go into freak out mode and start PMing RC,Walkalong, Reloadron, among others, when I run into a new step that Im having trouble with. A few days later Im like "ohhhh, that's what they were trying to say".

As a novice though it's not always easy to gauge how safe or dangerous something is, so it's always good to ask.

 

[sirgilligan]

As a novice though it's not always easy to gauge how safe or dangerous something is, so it's always good to ask.

Exactly. I like my fingers on the end of my hands, my eyeballs in their sockets, and my firearms in one piece (so to speak).

Thanks to all.