Seriously, why not? There are a lot of grumblings that 9mm is underpowered, but it has better mag capacity than .45. So why not switch to FNs 5.7x28 Five seveN? Great capacity with awesome penetration, including against armor. Perhaps for the new USAF handgun?
Five seveN for military?
- Thread starter DRMMR02
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well just to throw my 1/50th of a dollar in this
a good military round needs to have more going for it than armor penetration. i dont know much about the 5.7x28mm my understanding is small round, going fast, and i feel the 223 has proved that though it is ideal for some situations there are others it has been found lacking in.
by this i mean im not convinced the 5.7x28mm has the sheer mass to be an effective combat handgun round. i fear it will be the new Flechette rounds. amazing armor piercing, but seriously lacking knock down power.
Just my uneducated opinion.
Please enlighten me.
a good military round needs to have more going for it than armor penetration. i dont know much about the 5.7x28mm my understanding is small round, going fast, and i feel the 223 has proved that though it is ideal for some situations there are others it has been found lacking in.
by this i mean im not convinced the 5.7x28mm has the sheer mass to be an effective combat handgun round. i fear it will be the new Flechette rounds. amazing armor piercing, but seriously lacking knock down power.
Just my uneducated opinion.
Please enlighten me.
Medusa
Member
AFAIK, Belgian AF uses the FN as standard issue sidearm. They're happy with it.
Cosmoline
Member
How many jihad nuts are wearing heavy armor?
epijunkie67
Member
I believe that the 5.7 X 28 was designed to replace the standard issue sidearm but not to replace a full sized rifle. Correct me if I'm wrong but the idea was to issue the P90 to troops as a more effective self defense weapon than a pistol. In that respect I think it's a much better option. 50 rounds, shoulder fired, much more effective range, armor piercing. Heck yeah I'd trade in my 9mm for one.
So 5.7 for military? Sure. In the approriate role.
And let me say, I've got an FN 5.7 pistol and a PS90 carbine. Even if we're talking about the pistol it's a heck of a shooter. The nearly total lack of recoil makes it uber control-able, it's very accurate, and long strings of follow up shots into small groups are very easy. Although the civilian ammo is ballistic tipped the military stuff is FMJ and designed to tumble on impact. If it acts as advertised the wounds should be pretty severe, at least as damaging as a 9mm. If that's the case then even the pistol is worth using by the military.
So 5.7 for military? Sure. In the approriate role.
And let me say, I've got an FN 5.7 pistol and a PS90 carbine. Even if we're talking about the pistol it's a heck of a shooter. The nearly total lack of recoil makes it uber control-able, it's very accurate, and long strings of follow up shots into small groups are very easy. Although the civilian ammo is ballistic tipped the military stuff is FMJ and designed to tumble on impact. If it acts as advertised the wounds should be pretty severe, at least as damaging as a 9mm. If that's the case then even the pistol is worth using by the military.
M2 Carbine
member
I think I'd rather have the FN than the FMJ 9mm as a side arm.
MachIVshooter
Member
I wouldn't bet my life on a round that is marginally more effective than a .22 mag.
The 5.56mm NATO is effective because it crosses the velocity threshhold where real trauma occurs. The 5.7x28 fired from a handgun does not. Under ~2,000 FPS, wounds are created by crushing and tearing tissue. A .355" bullet will do this better than a .224" bullet.
The 5.7x28 only shines over other pistol rounds where light body armor is concerned.
SoCalShooter
Member
The US armed forces needs to go back to .45acp in any type of gun I dont care, preferably they would go to springfield for 1911's nice to see an American handgun manufacturer get the deal.
Manedwolf
member
So to compliment the smaller .223 that has less overall stopping power than the 7.62x39 it's facing, a new pistol that also makes a smaller hole than what the bad guys are using?
Um. Yeah. Maybe we could then move to .22LR rifles as the next step? Or .17HMR?
I thought the point of urban combat now wasn't to put down a guy in advanced body armor, but to put down a screaming nutcase who's yelling "alahu akbar!" before he gets close enough to detonate his explosive vest among your guys?
Um. Yeah. Maybe we could then move to .22LR rifles as the next step? Or .17HMR?
I thought the point of urban combat now wasn't to put down a guy in advanced body armor, but to put down a screaming nutcase who's yelling "alahu akbar!" before he gets close enough to detonate his explosive vest among your guys?
Cosmoline
Member
MachIVshooter makes an excellent point. It's a wee little bullet and it's not moving fast enough to have the explosive effect. Adopting it would be yet another example of preparing for the last war, when we faced hordes of Red Army Men and their armored protection.
outofbattery
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Springfield 1911's are Brazilian
ugaarguy
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Unfortunately Springfield Armory 1911s are made in Brazil by IMBEL. Further, a 1911 isn't gonna cut it. Single Action is dead for general issue in the US Miiltary. Much as I'd love a 1911 I think HK has a real leg up if you read all the wants as well as requirements on the new AF handgun RFI.
As far as the FiveseveN for a sidearm, unless they're likely to wearing armor I'll take a 9mm. Pretty much what others have said already.
mons meg
Member
And, since we seem to be fighting 3rd world insurgent type rather than well equipped front line troops, there you go. The 5.7mm was built for the P90. THe pistol, while nice, primarily exists as an ammo-sharing platform for the PDW.
That being said, every citizen should own one, and have several hundred rounds of FMJ on hand.
mons meg
Member
We should probably use our rifles for that...
Grunt
Member
Well first off, there is the stopping power issue. The 5.7 is great for poking holes through armor but it's not much good for any other purpose. No, I don't want to get shot by one of them but I don't want to get shot with a pellet rifle either so let's not even bother going there. The 9mm M882 round has been getting it's share of curses for it's lack of stopping power so we really don't need to go to something smaller yet. Would it be a better choice for facing down hordes of armored Russians or Chinese? Probably but lets look at the here and now instead of dealing with wars that didn't become hot ones or wars that "may" someday come assuming we aren't into plasma rifles and directed energy weapons by that time that would make the 5.7 and all other forms of ammunition as we know it obsolete on the battlefield. No, today we are fighting insurgents (I have yet to see one with body armor) and here the 5.7 is an even worse choice than the M882 9mm ammo we are using.
Now as far as issuing the 1911 back into general issue, that's a disaster waiting to happen. In CATM, we have a joke that the most deadly individual on the battlefield is the Air Force Catagorey C shooter. When required to use their weapon, somebody is going to die!!! It may not necessarily be the bad guy shooting at him (hey, it may be his buddy next to him or even the Cat C shooter himself) but SOMEBODY is going to catch a slug!!!:banghead: We see some of the worst gun handling (and by far, the worst offenders are the cop squadrons) that the idea of arming these people in the first place is a bad idea IMHO and the idea of giving them a 1911 with it's short, light trigger makes me cringe!!! No, the M9's double action trigger is bad enough. We don't need them having a shorter, lighter trigger to more easily shoot themselves or worse, one of my instructors! My suggestion would be something like a LEM or DAK trigger but that's a topic for another thread.
Now as far as issuing the 1911 back into general issue, that's a disaster waiting to happen. In CATM, we have a joke that the most deadly individual on the battlefield is the Air Force Catagorey C shooter. When required to use their weapon, somebody is going to die!!! It may not necessarily be the bad guy shooting at him (hey, it may be his buddy next to him or even the Cat C shooter himself) but SOMEBODY is going to catch a slug!!!:banghead: We see some of the worst gun handling (and by far, the worst offenders are the cop squadrons) that the idea of arming these people in the first place is a bad idea IMHO and the idea of giving them a 1911 with it's short, light trigger makes me cringe!!!
No, the M9's double action trigger is bad enough. We don't need them having a shorter, lighter trigger to more easily shoot themselves or worse, one of my instructors! My suggestion would be something like a LEM or DAK trigger but that's a topic for another thread.RNB65
Member
Hell would freeze over first. How familiar are you with the US Army Ordnance Corps? They approach arming soldiers with a closed minded conservatism that knows no boundaries.
To this very day they still don't believe that soldiers need full auto rifles in combat, so they issue M16's with 3-shot burst triggers rather than full auto capability. Of course, the people making these decisions are all REMFs and have never been anywhere near a battlefield or had a bullet fired in their direction in anger. :banghead:
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Eightball
Member
The five-seven would be a pointless addition to our armory unless you're throwing the P90 in the mix. We don't even have an issue SMG, IIRC (other than occasional pilot/specops deal). I've seen pictures of our dudes with PPSh in 7.62x35 (25?) for battle, rather than the M4. Why not just adopt an SMG, and get the issue settled? More ammo+lower recoil+faster ROF=SMG, not smaller-cartridge handgun.
Pistols are nice, but...
Just like my niece who is currently serving in Afghanistan stated.
"If I'm reaching for my pistol, I'm already F%^4ED! I should never be reaching for my pistol, it should always be a rifle. Pistols are last resort only."
On that note, I don't suspect each and every AF troop in a plane has room for a rifle to stay in tune with the thread. I'd have a .40S&W over a 9mm if I had my choice. It's what the Coast Guard is moving to with HK being the supplier.
the FN5x7 is neat, but without doing a bunch of math, I'd prefer 'heavy and slow' to 'light and fast' when body armor is not a concern.
jeepmor
Just like my niece who is currently serving in Afghanistan stated.
"If I'm reaching for my pistol, I'm already F%^4ED! I should never be reaching for my pistol, it should always be a rifle. Pistols are last resort only."
On that note, I don't suspect each and every AF troop in a plane has room for a rifle to stay in tune with the thread. I'd have a .40S&W over a 9mm if I had my choice. It's what the Coast Guard is moving to with HK being the supplier.
the FN5x7 is neat, but without doing a bunch of math, I'd prefer 'heavy and slow' to 'light and fast' when body armor is not a concern.
jeepmor
mljdeckard
Member
I agree with many of the above posters, but jeepmor in particular.
If you are at war, and you actually have to use your sidearm, you are in serious trouble. As the bad guy is charging you, you pull your pistol, and line up the sights, the last thought you will ever think is: "I'm trying to stop a charging adult male with a hot steel-core .22 magnum."
I think the 5.7 is a round that was invented to convince everyone there is a need for it.
If you are at war, and you actually have to use your sidearm, you are in serious trouble. As the bad guy is charging you, you pull your pistol, and line up the sights, the last thought you will ever think is: "I'm trying to stop a charging adult male with a hot steel-core .22 magnum."
I think the 5.7 is a round that was invented to convince everyone there is a need for it.
loki.fish
Member
9mm vs 5.7x28 is the new caliber war threads. The fact of the matter is shot placement....doesn't matter what caliber you use. Argue all you want over what caliber you would use, but if you can't hit a lethal spot on the body, that caliber is pretty worthless. These caliber wars are getting old.
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