Flechette Legality
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Probably legal.
Definitely worthless, unless you have a 106mm recoilless rifle or 155mm Howitzer to shoot them out of in mass quantities.
rcmodel
Definitely worthless, unless you have a 106mm recoilless rifle or 155mm Howitzer to shoot them out of in mass quantities.
rcmodel
Doug Humble
Member
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- Dec 23, 2007
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The USMC did indeed use them in Nam, to great effect. One dead VC I examined had been killed by a single fleshette which entered his arm near the elbow and exited near thr opposite knee.
Thanks for the info, but what is with the inability to penetrate plywood, after a little experimenting, I was able to get 12ga sized holes of nothing but flachette at 23 yards. One time, I blew open one of those aluminum Green Gas cans, which is about 2mm thick, at 23yds.
They do less damage than buckshot to standard tissue. The total tissue impacted is less than the bore diameter of the weapon. With buckshot the total diameter impacted is several times the bore diameter, and since the human or animal bodies are only so wide, excess penetration traded for tissue damage is wasted.
The result is buckshot destroys more cubic area of the size animals you would use shot against giving better performance.
Flechettes do have thier place though. They can pattern amazingly well at range, and they penetrate well, especialy against things that would deflect or defeat shot.
Most of the problems you see with flechette rounds that are sold is they are not used in a proper setup. Putting projectiles that are very narrow in diameter but relatively heavy in a shot cup designed for spherical shot means the shot cup is often perforated during firing allowing much of the energy to blow right through the flechettes and not be imparted to them. The result is they have a fraction of the energy and perform horribly.
You really need a robust shot cup or something solid placed behind them in the cup they will not penetrate on firing.
Another thing is most loads sold are improper charges. They are either undercharged significantly or they are charges mean for another load that don't get enough pressure with flechettes.
In short they are often loaded and sold by gimmick producers that don't know much about creating a quality product, just a novelty.
So flechettes are actualy better performers than many tests and various individual's personal experiences demonstrate. They are just put together by people that don't know what they are doing and the result is a round that performs at a fraction of its potential, leaving people with a perspective they are much worse than they are.
As far as legality, some of the more restrictive states have laws against them.
In fact I think even some places like Florida have laws against them, so thier legality can vary.
In CA they are outlawed, in IL I think they are. Most likely NJ and MA have them outlawed as well. There may be a few other places that have also adopted similar policies.
Another thing to keep in mind with them is that due to thier shape even projectile weights that are not traditionaly thought of as dangerous falling from the sky are dangerous. Thier shape will cause them to point downards on thier way back to earth and as a result thier penetration will be much higher than a similar weight sphere of shot, meaning even tiny ones are still a hazard falling from the sky.
The result is buckshot destroys more cubic area of the size animals you would use shot against giving better performance.
Flechettes do have thier place though. They can pattern amazingly well at range, and they penetrate well, especialy against things that would deflect or defeat shot.
Most of the problems you see with flechette rounds that are sold is they are not used in a proper setup. Putting projectiles that are very narrow in diameter but relatively heavy in a shot cup designed for spherical shot means the shot cup is often perforated during firing allowing much of the energy to blow right through the flechettes and not be imparted to them. The result is they have a fraction of the energy and perform horribly.
You really need a robust shot cup or something solid placed behind them in the cup they will not penetrate on firing.
Another thing is most loads sold are improper charges. They are either undercharged significantly or they are charges mean for another load that don't get enough pressure with flechettes.
In short they are often loaded and sold by gimmick producers that don't know much about creating a quality product, just a novelty.
So flechettes are actualy better performers than many tests and various individual's personal experiences demonstrate. They are just put together by people that don't know what they are doing and the result is a round that performs at a fraction of its potential, leaving people with a perspective they are much worse than they are.
As far as legality, some of the more restrictive states have laws against them.
In fact I think even some places like Florida have laws against them, so thier legality can vary.
In CA they are outlawed, in IL I think they are. Most likely NJ and MA have them outlawed as well. There may be a few other places that have also adopted similar policies.
Another thing to keep in mind with them is that due to thier shape even projectile weights that are not traditionaly thought of as dangerous falling from the sky are dangerous. Thier shape will cause them to point downards on thier way back to earth and as a result thier penetration will be much higher than a similar weight sphere of shot, meaning even tiny ones are still a hazard falling from the sky.
Flechettes don't fragment or hook unless driven at very high velocities. Studies in Vietnam found that the wounding potential of shotgun flechettes was directly proportional to the tail width, which lead AAI to develop the SCMITR flechette.
Flechette were meant to be the primary point target ammunition for the SPIW and later Steyr ACR, but both accuracy issues and questions of lethality have plagues this ammunition.
Please note that the flechettes typically found on line or at gun shows are not the flechettes that were loaded into Winchester, Whirlpool and other Vietnam era shotgun ammunition, but are rather recovered but flechettes used in Beehive artillery ammunition.
IIRC, flechettes are unlawful in CA and NY, and in several cities and counties.
Flechette were meant to be the primary point target ammunition for the SPIW and later Steyr ACR, but both accuracy issues and questions of lethality have plagues this ammunition.
Please note that the flechettes typically found on line or at gun shows are not the flechettes that were loaded into Winchester, Whirlpool and other Vietnam era shotgun ammunition, but are rather recovered but flechettes used in Beehive artillery ammunition.
IIRC, flechettes are unlawful in CA and NY, and in several cities and counties.
BTW
Flechettes were investigated for shotguns as part of SALVO not because of lethality, but rather because it was hoped that flechettes would increase the effective range of the shotgun to the 300-500 meters identified in the Hitchman report as being typical maximum combat range.
Several shotgun flechettes tested exhibited the ability to penetrate the US steel helmet at 500 yards and beyond. Accuracy and lethality, however, proved to be a problem.
Flechettes were investigated for shotguns as part of SALVO not because of lethality, but rather because it was hoped that flechettes would increase the effective range of the shotgun to the 300-500 meters identified in the Hitchman report as being typical maximum combat range.
Several shotgun flechettes tested exhibited the ability to penetrate the US steel helmet at 500 yards and beyond. Accuracy and lethality, however, proved to be a problem.
The flechette rounds you are probably reading about are aftermarket round, and not the Winchester or Remington loads produced for the Army and Marines during Vietnam. These used a cadmium plated flechette and the flechettes didn't stabilize until an average of 32 feet from the muzzle.
Military flechette ammunition was manufactured by Olin, Whirlpool, AAI, Northrup, Remington and General Precision. Only Remington and Winchester were manufactured in an quantity. These are variously marked as "Cartridge, 18.5mm, Flechette, Plastic Case, "XM 258" and "Cartridge, Beehive, Remington Model SP-12F-20".
Most of the civilians manufactured flechette ammunition was made by the Blammo Ammo company, and used surplus artillery flechettes.
Rampant_Colt
Member
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Sabot Designs Flechette Sabot (19 flechette cartridge).html
Brassfetcher.com said:
From Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets by Dr. Martin Fackler
Two concepts that are being considered deserve comment. First, the flechette (a nail with fins) used as a single small-arm projectile) this projectile has been used in artillery rounds to increase the radius of the injuryzone. It retains velocity well due to its aerodynamic shape and high length-to-diameter ratio. It can cause wounds at a much greater distance from the detonation than blunt irregular fragments or spheres that lose velocity rapidly. However, an overwhelming limitation of the flechette is the very minimal wound it causes. Flechettes are stabilised in air by fins rather than rotation. Fin stabilisation works just as well in tissue, keeping the projectile point forward. Travelling in this attitude, it causes minimal tissue crush disruption and almost no temporary cavity.
Military rifle bullets yaw in tissue because their rotation is sufficient to maintain their point-forward travel in air, but insufficient to maintain that position in tissue - sooner or later they yaw to reach their stable centre-of-mass-forward attitude. Flechettes have the drag of the fins permanently attached on their tail to keep the point forward; this stabilises them in air and in tissue.
Considerable confusion exists concerning the effects of flechettes. In a recent publication one finds the erroneous statement "...the flechette can inflict severe wounds by virtue of its poor stabilisation and readiness to tumble on impact...". Bellamy's "Little arrows", the classic paper on flechettes, points out a reason for the misconceptions: Many flechettes launched from artillery shells are bent by the force of the detonation. Persons close to the detonation are penetrated by these bent flechettes. It has been assumed that the bending resulted from the flechettes striking the body. Bellamy's report is in accord with this author's personal experience treating flechette wounds on the battlefield - flechettes, as used thus far in warfare, travel straight in tissue and cause very minimal tissue disruption.
Two concepts that are being considered deserve comment. First, the flechette (a nail with fins) used as a single small-arm projectile) this projectile has been used in artillery rounds to increase the radius of the injuryzone. It retains velocity well due to its aerodynamic shape and high length-to-diameter ratio. It can cause wounds at a much greater distance from the detonation than blunt irregular fragments or spheres that lose velocity rapidly. However, an overwhelming limitation of the flechette is the very minimal wound it causes. Flechettes are stabilised in air by fins rather than rotation. Fin stabilisation works just as well in tissue, keeping the projectile point forward. Travelling in this attitude, it causes minimal tissue crush disruption and almost no temporary cavity.
Military rifle bullets yaw in tissue because their rotation is sufficient to maintain their point-forward travel in air, but insufficient to maintain that position in tissue - sooner or later they yaw to reach their stable centre-of-mass-forward attitude. Flechettes have the drag of the fins permanently attached on their tail to keep the point forward; this stabilises them in air and in tissue.
Considerable confusion exists concerning the effects of flechettes. In a recent publication one finds the erroneous statement "...the flechette can inflict severe wounds by virtue of its poor stabilisation and readiness to tumble on impact...". Bellamy's "Little arrows", the classic paper on flechettes, points out a reason for the misconceptions: Many flechettes launched from artillery shells are bent by the force of the detonation. Persons close to the detonation are penetrated by these bent flechettes. It has been assumed that the bending resulted from the flechettes striking the body. Bellamy's report is in accord with this author's personal experience treating flechette wounds on the battlefield - flechettes, as used thus far in warfare, travel straight in tissue and cause very minimal tissue disruption.
And here are the pictures I promised.
This is the handloaded flechette fired from a Norinco 20'' barreled coachgun w/ full choke. Entry measured 1.3 inches by RCBS reloading calipers. sheet measured 2'x2'x1/2'' @ 23-1/2 yards
This is the exit. Measured same diameter as entry.
This is another handloaded shell of the same process. Entry on a five gallon plastic water container measured .7 inches. Same shotgun and distance as above.
This is the exit from the five gallon water barrel. Measured .7 inches as well.
Above is the bottom of an airsoft Green Gas canister which is 2mm thick aluminum on the bottom. Shot with same shotgun and distance as all others above. penetrated outer third of bottom with an entry diameter of around 1 inch.
This is the handloaded flechette fired from a Norinco 20'' barreled coachgun w/ full choke. Entry measured 1.3 inches by RCBS reloading calipers. sheet measured 2'x2'x1/2'' @ 23-1/2 yards
This is the exit. Measured same diameter as entry.
This is another handloaded shell of the same process. Entry on a five gallon plastic water container measured .7 inches. Same shotgun and distance as above.
This is the exit from the five gallon water barrel. Measured .7 inches as well.
Above is the bottom of an airsoft Green Gas canister which is 2mm thick aluminum on the bottom. Shot with same shotgun and distance as all others above. penetrated outer third of bottom with an entry diameter of around 1 inch.
Chipperman
Member
Cool.
Do you have any pics of the projectiles?
Do you have any pics of the projectiles?
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