Flechettes

[LHRGunslinger]

I've done a little bit of reading on the "Beehive" flechette shotgun shells. I THINK I read somewhere that they were accurate out to 150 yards. It got me thinking. Would something like that be useful or even effective for some sort of sport shooting? Most likely hunting?

Here are the flechettes I've come across for purchase. Yes I know about the disclaimer in their description.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/BAM050-1.html

 

[oneounceload]

Most shotgun ammo isn't effective at 150 yards.

What would you try to hunt with those?

How would you maintain safety downrange as they start to spread out?

What loading data and components would you use?

Just asking.............

 

[Virginian]

Steel shot with fins. Pure mall ninja hyperbole. 50 pounds worth out of a howitzer at 3000+ FPS versus 1-1/4 ounces out of a 12 gauge at 1300 FPS yields entirely different results.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Flechettes are small and have very little mass, so they do not penetrate well at distance.
The military reported poor results with shotgun flechettes during the Vietnam war.
If shotgun flechettes don't work in war, there is little reason to question their utility on hunting game.

See this post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=277469

 

[LHRGunslinger]

I was thinking they might be decent for hunting birds. Though not necessarily legal to use. I'd imagine they'd be easier to locate and remove than birdshot. I figure since they're rather accurate compared to standard shot they'd be a good candidate for skeet shooting. Also not necessarily legal to use or within competition requirements.

I understand these ideas may put some people off. I understand I may be called a "mall ninja" for this. I'm just trying to look at a technology that failed for it's intended purpose and find a new one for it. Minds are like parachutes. They ONLY work when they're open.

 

[oneounceload]

I don't necessarily see their accuracy, especially on skeet targets moving at 42mph. With no wad designed for these that I know of, they would be traveling down your barrel scraping it as they go.

For birds, I would rather use shot in the proper size, but that's JMO

 

[LHRGunslinger]

I'm not an expert on this. And from what I figure the only R&D ever put into flechette technology for shotguns was during the Vietnam War. I think I might decide to put some time n effort into experimenting with em. Just to see if I can get em to be more accurate if nothing else.

 

[ReloaderFred]

When I was stationed next to an Air Force Base with the Sheriff's Dept. in the early 1970's, we were given all kinds of different ammunition by the Air Force Security Police, who we worked pretty closely with. Among the things I got was a bunch of 12 ga. Flechette rounds.

I got to shoot a lot of them, and finally gave away the few I had remaining. There is no way anyone can claim accuracy to 150 yards with a 12 ga. Flechette round. As light as the Flechettes are, I doubt they even travel that far, let alone hit something that was aimed at. They lose their energy rather quickly, and there aren't very many of them in a 12 ga. round to start with.

To keep the flechettes from going through the plastic wad, a metal disc just slightly smaller than a dime was placed in the bottom of the plastic wad, and this acted as a pusher for the steel flechettes. Without the disc, they found that the wad would absorb the thin steel darts. They also had a heavy plastic sleeve around them to protect the bore.

On tests of old car doors, we had to back up to about 25 yards to safely shoot them. Any closer and the darts don't stabilize and they hit the door sideways and bounce back at nearly the same velocity they hit the door at. At 25 yards, some would penetrate the outer skin of the door, but that's about it. They won't penetrate a car windshield, and again, they bounce back if fired at a 90 degree angle.

For hunting game or shooting trap or skeet, they would be totally useless, since there's only about 10 or 12 flechettes in each shell. It's been awhile, so I don't remember the exact count.

There are also at least two different sizes of flechettes. One is intended for shotgun use and are a little over an inch long. The ones intended for cannon use are considerably longer and heavier, and probably wouldn't fit in a shotgun shell, and even if they did, you'd only be able to get a few in there.

After shooting about a hundred of these rounds in various "tests", my advice is to forget them. It was an idea that didn't pan out, and there was a reason. That reason is they weren't affective for their intended purpose.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[GunTech]

There has been extensive research on flechette ammo, primarily by AAI (Now ATK, IIRC). The concept was revived by Dr. Vannevar Bush and experienced something of a Renaissance in the lat 1950's through the late 60s.

Basically, in shotguns the lethality of flechettes is directly proportional to the width of the tail fins. Fackler has published a few studies are well.;

Also note that the flechette ammunition made by Whirlpool and other for testing in Vietnam is very different from the beehive flechette sold online that are scavenged from artillery ammo.

There a lot of detailed information in Swearengen's "Wold's Fighting Shotguns" if you can find a copy.

 

[rcmodel]

The problem with those surplus artillery bee-hive Flechettes you linked to is they are artillery Flechettes.

As such, they have hardened steel tail fins that will slice through any kind of plastic wad you care to stuff them in.
And in turn, score your shotgun barrel!

The ones they actually used in shotgun shells during the Vietnam 12 ga flechette failure only had a flat pinched on the end of the Flechettes that would not slice through the bore protector wad.

In addition, everyone else is quite correct in that the light weigh causes severe velocity loss at short range.
And the very small number that will fit in a shell makes pattern density useless for any sporting or military purpose.

If they had proven more effective then 00 buckshot in combat, we would still be using them in the military today, but we are not.

rc

 

[Coolbreeze8804]

Fascinating. What about using just one?
Like a shotgun launched miniature arrow of sorts... I don't know what it would be useful for since I would think that the accuracy would be horrible, but with just one the mass is up there where it would retain energy for a while...

I'd like to give it a whirl for enterainment purposes if nothing else, but I just can't imagine spending an hour or so in the shop on the lathe to make a itty bitty arrow, and then flinging it down to range to see if I could find it again? I've been laughed at enough this week...

 

[ReloaderFred]

There have been all kinds of inventive projectiles for shotguns over the years. I was present at a demonstration for the Air Force of one in the early 1980's that would penetrate the titanium armor of the Hind helicopter. It actually did a pretty good job on the armor, but the range was limited to about 100 yards, which is way to close to be to a Hind.......... It wasn't a flechette, but it was along that principal and required a rifled barrel on the 12 ga., which weren't readily available at the time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Shadow 7D]

One of the M-4 competitors was a rifle that shot a saboted flechette, only problem was, it was a 2-3mm dart, penetrated well, but not very lethal.

 

[Fred Fuller]

If they worked, you wouldn't have to ask the question, because EVERYONE would be manufacturing/selling/using them.

That's not what's happening though, right?

lpl

 

[tkopp]

Fascinating. What about using just one?
Like a shotgun launched miniature arrow of sorts... I don't know what it would be useful for since I would think that the accuracy would be horrible, but with just one the mass is up there where it would retain energy for a while...

I'd like to give it a whirl for enterainment purposes if nothing else, but I just can't imagine spending an hour or so in the shop on the lathe to make a itty bitty arrow, and then flinging it down to range to see if I could find it again? I've been laughed at enough this week...

You sir, just reinvented the sabot slug.

Congratulations.

 

[unwise11]

i work at a trap and skeet club, and also am a member there, anything over #6 shot is not allowed. so no, and you get over 100 little shot balls in a load for 12 guage, and about 25-30 flechettes. so no. they are for CLOSE range.

 

[Coolbreeze8804]

You are all aware that the tin can was invented some time before the can opener was invented right?

and Edna said to Bob when he mentioned that it might be a good idea to have one... "If they worked, you wouldn't have to ask the question, because EVERYONE would be manufacturing/selling/using them.

That's not what's happening though, right?

lpl "


I'm talkin' about an arrow/dart thingie... big, (not a sabot round), with vanes and a shaft and, and,, oooh! maybe a little guidance computer to steer the fins, and a teenie weenie camera, and maybe a firecracker to go "pop!" when it gets there so you know you got a point and...........