FMJ for defense in small calibers?

[dancitizen]

.32 ACP, .380 ACP, 9x18 (To a much lesser extent .25 auto)

These cartridges have been used by police and for self defense over many decades in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, actually... pretty much everywhere but the USA.

In their FMj loadings, out of small to mid sized pistols, these cartridges have performed their role well.

In the USA there are to converging trends, high performance projectiles, and a proliferation of subcompact pistols with very short barrels. These short barrels can cost a lot of precious velocity and detract from expansion.

I remember talking to an retired Spanish police officer about this many years back and he felt strongly that making sure there was both an entrance and an exit wound was more important than expansion and a slightly larger wound tract. He was a staunch supporter of .32 acp calling it a "proven man stopper"

So what do you all think?

- Is it better to go for the better feeding and deeper penetration of the FMJ?

- Do you feel the modern hollowpoints have reliable expansion and are worth the reduced penetration?

- Do the new "short barrel" rounds perform as promised?

 

[Thermactor]

I don't believe in using anything less powerful than the Federal 9BPLE for self defense.

 

[Crayfish]

I thought something along the same lines when I went "down" to a 9mm. I shoot federal 124 gr standard pressure HST and it has performed really well in everything I shot it through out of a 2.9" barrel. It has become my go-to carry ammo and it is made in 380. Not bad @ $26 for a box of 50 if you can find it in stock long enough to buy some. That's my vote for reliable expansion and very good penetration.

 

[481]

I'll take a shot (pun intended) at your questions...

- Is it better to go for the better feeding and deeper penetration of the FMJ??

Generally speaking, yes.

- Do you feel the modern hollowpoints have reliable expansion and are worth the reduced penetration??

Sure there are reliable JHP designs, but the ability of the smaller calibers to push a fully expanded JHP deep enough to reach vitals on an obstructed or non-frontal presentation is a genuine concern.

- Do the new "short barrel" rounds perform as promised?

I've seen tests where they do well and others where they do not, but the ability of the smaller calibers to push an expanded JHP deep enough to reach vitals is still an issue which gets me back to the answer for your first question.

 

[dancitizen]

I don't believe in using anything less powerful than the Federal 9BPLE for self defense.

.380 is 9x17mm, headspaces on the mouth, and is .984 in overall length. Max pressure is 21,500.

9mm is 9x19 (also headspacing on the mouth) and is 1.169 overall. Max pressure is 35,000

the Federal 9BPLE is +p+ ...I believe is running pressure somewhere north of 44,000

So I see three problems:

1) Your overall cartridge length is going to require hand feeding each round, possibly even field stripping the weapon and reassembling it loaded. For self defense purposes this is a tad slow.

2) The 9mm case length is too long to allow the gun to go completely into battery, which may prevent firing. This will also leave a portion of the case unsupported, which can easily result in a case blowout.

3) .380 proof test pressure is 28,000-30,000. Your chosen load is approximately 50% above this level.

For a self defense round to be effective it must first be reliable. I fear that in striving for more power out of a .380 you may be loosing to much in the way of reliability.

Now if you are talking about using your chosen load in a .32 or .25 you will be encountering even greater difficulties.

 

[HB]

Overall I don't see the huge deal surrounding ammo choice. The odds are infinitesimally small than you will ever need to fire a gun in self defense, let alone that extra expansion from a HP vs FMJ will make a difference. However, I do understand that those stakes are high.

I use FMJ in my keltec p32 because it is basically a pea shooter to begin with. I know they will feed well because my practice ammo is my carry ammo. I also know what they will do should they hit wood, metal etc because I've shot my carry load a lot. In the remote possibility I need it on the street I believe that it will shoot a hole in what I need to shoot a hole in.

In a mouse gun I think reliability and confidence is king and FMJ has both. That being said I use the FBI load for snubs and a XTP bullet in my 9s.

HB

 

[Lucky Derby]

It's not lack of expansion with HPs in these little calibers that is the problem, it's the expansion causing lack of penatration. If I were to carry in these small calibers I would go FMJ.

"Accuracy is King, penatration is Queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin"

 

[MedWheeler]

In .380 (Bersa Thunder), I usually load JHP, but if it were in an even shorter-barreled pistol, I'd likely switch to FMJ. So, I guess a three-plus-inch barrel is my cutoff; anything shorter and I switch to FMJ, in that caliber, at least.

My P32 is FMJ-stoked. Anything smaller would be as well (I don't own anything in .25, and what .22 guns I do keep loaded are loaded with RN ammo.)

 

[ku4hx]

Bottom line for me is always reliability first. Any gun that malfs is little more than a poorly shaped hammer. And frankly, that's my reality regardless of caliber or cartridge.

Small caliber semi autos are challenged enough when they perform perfectly; I believe in doing all I can to promote their flawless operation. In my experience, round nose full metal jackets do that.

 

[Combat Engineer]

""...remember talking to (a) retired Spanish police officer about this many years back and he felt strongly that making sure there was both an entrance and an exit wound was more important than expansion and a slightly larger wound tract. He was a staunch supporter of .32 acp calling it a "proven man stopper"" [dancitizen]

Couple of WW2 anecdotes from the past: Recall a story of an OSS agent who was being chased by a Gestapo officer who emptied his 9mm Luger at the agent. The agent, realizing that he had not been hit, turned and fired one shot from his 32ACP Browning 1910, which dropped the pursuer. It is unknown whether the pursuer survived or succumbed. Another story involved an Allied agent who was cornered by a Nazi and taking a severe beating, however, the agent finally broke free and managed to get his 32ACP Spanish Ruby out, which he emptied into the attacker. Later the agent recalled how the bullets seemed to have little or no effect on the attacker, and it was not till after the last round was fired, that the Nazi fell down.

My first carry was an early 32ACP Walther, but as the years passed I went to a 44 and/or 45. Still carry a 32ACP (as a BUG), a PPK in an ankle holster, have tried other larger bore ankle guns, but always come back to the PPK. No confidence in it but it should do the job...I think.

And yes, FMJ is preferred, the only prerequisite is accuracy.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Given one or the other, but not both, give me small caliber hardball over larger caliber hollow points. For the bigger stuff, I'll take a shotgun or rifle, thank you. However, given sufficient advance notice of pending gunfight requiring my attendance, give me my Brooks running shoes.

 

[kokapelli]

If you haven't seen this video on 380 JHP performance you should check it out. Be sure to scroll down to the video.

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/

 

[Deaf Smith]

With my P32 Kel-Tec I use FMJ except just recently I got a box of Winchester Silvertips (50 rounds) for $18 bucks. Functions perfectly and actually shoots where the weird trapezoid sights look.

But normally I'd use FMJ in either .380 or .32.

I just don't use a .25.. period.

Deaf

 

[Panzerschwein]

While I voted FMJ, there are a some VERY few .380 hollow points that do perform well.

Not sure about .32, and I highly doubt .25.

 

[bannockburn]

In smaller calibers like .380 and .32 I pretty much stay with FMJ ammo, mainly for reliable feeding and penetration.

 

[fletcher]

FMJ (or equivalent) for me. Hardcast 9x18 in my Makarov, FMJ in my P32.

 

[jimbo555]

I agree with Cooldill. Fmj for sure in 32 and 25. A few rounds in 380jhp are ok.

 

[cfullgraf]

A few years ago, I dabbled with modern designer hollow point bullets in my 380 ACP pistols. They always left an empty feeling in my stomach primarily due to various reliability issues.

Recently I load only FMJ. As I have gotten into 32 ACP and 25 ACP, I would now only use RN bullets.

Some folks are more comfortable with the hollow points and i say more power to them. At least we have a choice.

 

[MICHAEL T]

In 380 I use Corbon DPX I have went to Ball in 32 and always in 25 acp 22 short CCI

 

[Ben86]

I belive fmj is the way to go with .25 and .32. They are too slow and light to have expansion and adequate penetration. These days premium jhps in .380 perform very well.

I see the innovative extreme penetrator bullet possibly enhancing small calibers drastically because it doesn't rely on expansion to make a bigger than caliber wound channel.

 

[C0untZer0]

There is .380 ACP hollow point ammunition that penetrate to 12"

When 380 JHP fails to expand it acts much like a FMJ, so why use FMJ? When using .380 JHP that is designed to penetrate past 12 inches (I'm not talking about the stuff that stops at 9" to 10" ) it will either expand as designed, in which case the expanded bullet penetrates between 12" - 13" or the bullet fails to expand and is no worse off than using a FMJ in the first place.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

When 380 JHP fails to expand it acts much like a FMJ, so why use FMJ?

In order to obtain more penetration. Actually, the FBI standard of 16 inches penetration may be something of a false god to the rest of us. All you really need to reach the vital organs in a typical frontal confrontation is 6-7 inches. That's getting down into 25 ACP and 32 ACP hardball territory at close range. But, so as not to jack the thread, 380 JHP is probably the premier small caliber semi auto round today, expanded or not.

 

[C0untZer0]

One of the findings of the 3-day Wound Ballistic Workshop, held at the FBI Academy on September 15-17, 1987 was that "The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity"

In HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit stated:

"The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity."

"While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet must reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft tissue at a minimum, regardless if it expands or not. If the bullet does not penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use."

I've never seen .25 or ,32 hollow points penetrate 12" of gelatin. I've seen some FMJ .32 ACP in some tests penetrate to around that depth in ordinance gel.

 

[C0untZer0]

When 380 JHP fails to expand it acts much like a FMJ, so why use FMJ?

In order to obtain more penetration. Actually, the FBI standard of 16 inches penetration may be something of a false god to the rest of us. All you really need to reach the vital organs in a typical frontal confrontation is 6-7 inches. That's getting down into 25 ACP and 32 ACP hardball territory at close range. But, so as not to jack the thread, 380 JHP is probably the premier small caliber semi auto round today, expanded or not.

Some 380 bullets that fail to expand fully still expand somewhat and they can travel anywhere from 15" to 24", I'm not sure why you would want more penetration than that.

If you're talking about penetration through barriers, that is another issue.

An argument can be made that FMJ .380 ACP has better terminal ballistics than JHP through barriers like glass and car doors etc...

 

[mavracer]

If I were to carry it my 25 would have ball ammo. I have some Fiocchi 60gr JHPs for my 32s not the XTPs but the old Italian ammo loaded hot and really don't expand just flatten out a bit and tend to tumble and still penatrate well. I have 90gr golddots in my LCP but only carry it in warmer weather when I can't carry something larger.