FN Five seveN

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The shooter's motivations and affiliations don't matter.


And (I'm just gonna say it). He's a Muslim, who had issues with US foreign policy and treatment of Muslims, and was pissed about being deployed into a place he felt he might have to kill co-religionists.


I can't agree that the shooter's motivations and affiliations don't matter.

While most American Muslims in the military are making enormous contributions, enlisting in the armed forces is also a likely way to infiltrate and inflict damage as a terror tactic.

Is this a lone crazy who happens to be a Muslim...or is it a new form of attack that we'll see repeated?

I guess we'll find out.

I have not served in the military, so the fact that soldiers are not allowed to be armed comes as something of a surprise. As others pointed out, persons trained in combat, armed, might have reduced the casualties significantly.
 
It's only AP if it uses the AP ammo, which apparently is difficult for non-LE/non-military to get. And by "military," I mean through actual military channels. At any rate, it's an irrelevant diversion tactic as I've mentioned in other threads.
 
"Is this a lone crazy who happens to be a Muslim...or is it a new form of attack that we'll see repeated?"

I really doubt it. If you're suggesting infiltration of some sort.... why wait till he was a Major? And why go into pyschological services?
 
For those of you blasting CNN, just know that this type of misinformation is pervasive. I was watching Fox News coverage and one of the reporters there also identified it as a "cop killer," capable of firing armor-piercing bullets.

This is a horrible tragedy.
 
There is a difference: when Fox news reports that the gun used is a "cop killer" gun, their intent is to demonize the gunman and link him to radical Islam. When CNN reports the gun as a "cop killer" gun, their intent is to demonize the gun itself.

I watched Fox news on the day of the shooting and the reporters were asking really dumb questions to the shooter's cousin, while interviewing him. They were trying to bait him into saying his cousin was a foreign jihadist who converted to radical Islam.

umm, no, the guy had a chip on his shoulder about being harassed for being Muslim. He wasn't some sleeper agent.
 
Besides, as we all know, federal law prohibits the sale or possession of armor-piercing handgun ammunition.

"Armor piercing" has absolutely nothing to do with soft body armor. A variety of pistol rounds will pierce and penetrate soft body armor, especially when armor is not rated for it.

The ability to pierce soft body armor isn't magic. You can power your way through it such as by putting a .500 S&W through a Level IIa vest, or you can have the bullet pass between the fibers as via a spitzer/spire tip much like an ice pick. The regular 5.7x28mm non-AP ammo is spire tipped and has the velocity/power to pass through IIa and apparently Level II body armor. From what I have read, it seems to have trouble with the highest rated soft body armor, Level IIIa.

Was Hasan using AP ammo? Maybe, but probably not. Of course, he didn't need AP ammo for anything because he wasn't shooting at armored targets. Until the cops showed up, his targets were not even wearing soft body armor.
 
I read an article the other day in which the author was shocked that someone could legally buy an "armor-piercing rifle" in the U.S.
I have no idea what that means.
 
The idea that the 5.7 round is a "cop killer" has been pushed by the ATF for at least a year. Remember all the stories about guns being sent to the Mexican drug cartel. Brian Ross of ABC news did a story where the 5.7 was described by law enforcement as a "favorite" of the cartels.
 
From what I have read, the 5.7 steel core bullet will defeat a GI Kevlar helmet and level 3 body armor at close range. Logical weapon for the Major to have used then because opposing MPs do have access to armor.

BATF took this round off the market. It is now only available to police and active duty military.

Oops. Guess we need to stop giving ammo to soldiers now.

Sarcasm aside, ever wonder why he shot up a military installation? Hint here; GIs can't CCW firearms. Texas has a pretty liberal law so several of the folks he shot at would have shot back if he had gone off post. Just a thought.

Tom
 
Sadly the media will make the gun the main focus of this terrible tragedy, when really the focus should be how the real mental condition of this military psychologist slipped thru the cracks. This is the real reason the tragedy occurred, not the weapon.

IMHO, I doubt if the 5-7-N will be singled out, cause most of those making the noise will lump it in with the rest of the "black" autoloading handguns, with high capacity mags and capable of shooting both AP and HP ammo designed to create "devastating" wound channels. Most anti's can't tell a 5-7-N from a Sigma and look at them as virtually the same.
 
BATF took this round off the market. It is now only available to police and active duty military.

No, BATF did not take this round off of the market, nor did any law affect the sale of this round. FN pulled it from open sale on their own to try to avoid the negative press.

This round never did and still doesn't meet the legal definition of "armor piercing".

It's not illegal to sell, buy or own the original ammo. It's pretty hard to find now and pretty expensive, but it's out there.
 
Another thought. Interviews with his cousin make it clear the Major did not have any experience with firearms. The military gives no training to military docs and does not issue them weapons.

Army estimates are he fired off about a hundred shots. Medics and Army docs interviewed say the average victim was hit two or three times. So he hit 44 people multiple times with around 100 rounds. Do the math but that is about 100% accuracy.

So who taught the Major to shoot? I find it hard to believe someone capable of this sort of combat shooting performance and such a sophisticated choice of weapon was self taught.

I doubt he was a long term sleeper. He was a pious Muslim. I will say outright that I know some really salt of the earth folks who are pious Muslims , including the ex Marine I see in therapy for his PTSD because he gave a leg for his country. The Muslim docs and businessmen I know are grateful for the opportunities they got and love the USA.

Given Hasan's kind of erratic history, there is a question re: whether he was very tightly wrapped. Most of my fellow psychiatrists a pretty stable and caring people but there are a few who went into the specialty in a vain attempt to deal with major issues of their own. Just a guess here.

Unfortunately, some pious folks of the various religions go into cults and some of them are pretty violent and destructive. Before the Christians get too high and mighty about the extremist Muslim cults, they need to remember Jim Jones and the Kool Aid party. And a fundamentalist Jewish extremist believed the Lord led him to murder Prime Minister Rabin. Unbalanced people can pervert any religion into a thing of hate and destruction.

I strongly suspect Major Hasan, who had served about 7 years as an officer and also some years prior enlisted was initially a good solider and Muslim who let himself get sucked in by a violent extremist group. And with help in firearms training and planning by his new friends he executed a very sophisticated suicide (intended) attack that was much more effective than most bombings.

My thoughts anyway. Ain't about the pistol; we need to outlaw violent religious fanaticism. Lots of luck with that one.

Tom
 
There is a difference: when Fox news reports that the gun used is a "cop killer" gun, their intent is to demonize the gunman and link him to radical Islam. When CNN reports the gun as a "cop killer" gun, their intent is to demonize the gun itself.

I watched Fox news on the day of the shooting and the reporters were asking really dumb questions to the shooter's cousin, while interviewing him. They were trying to bait him into saying his cousin was a foreign jihadist who converted to radical Islam.

umm, no, the guy had a chip on his shoulder about being harassed for being Muslim. He wasn't some sleeper agent.
Regardless of what Fox News' intent is, if they call it a "cop killer," people will believe it.
 
The shooter was a jihadist and a terrorist, along with being a traitor to his country. Why do people think that in order to be a terrorist one must belong to an organization of sorts?

The ideology of Islam calls for murder of non-believers, and a believer might act on it at any given time. Of course most Muslims are not THAT religious, but if one is, he is a potential terrorist.

Let's not try to cover up the truth. The guy yelled "Allah Akbar" while shooting at unarmed defenseless people. He is a terrorist, not some guy that "lost it".

As far as 5-7 goes, he could have used any weapon for his murderous rampage. Would have been as effective. He could have used a 10-22 with a 30-rd magazine and have been even more effective for all I know.
 
Let's not forget another Muslim soldier that on the 1st day of invasion of Irak threw a hand grenade into a tent filled with fellow American soldiers, killing four of them. So this Hasan guy is not the first American Muslim service member to murder and commit treason.
 
I don't have any interest in the FN Five-Seven, but I do think there might be a push to ban these after this trajedy. This could very well put hi-cap mags at risk, as well as some pistols.

On the other hand, we're heading into an election year, the Dem's are going to pay the price for their health care bill, I don't think they want to piss even more people off with more useless gun control.
 
Ive always wanted one for the heck of it and this crap may push me to go pick one up just in case. The crazy stuff that dumb suits think up after tragedy's like this is amazing
 
No, BATF did not take this round off of the market, nor did any law affect the sale of this round. FN pulled it from open sale on their own to try to avoid the negative press.

This round never did and still doesn't meet the legal definition of "armor piercing".

It's not illegal to sell, buy or own the original ammo. It's pretty hard to find now and pretty expensive, but it's out there.
According to the ATF's own documentation, the original round (SS190), as well as the subsonic (SB193) and tracer rounds (SS191), is an armor-piercing round.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm
 
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Regardless of what Fox News' intent is, if they call it a "cop killer," people will believe it.
Are there "cop killer" varieties of cancer, heart disease, and auto accidents, and are they worse than the non-"cop killer" variants?

Because I am sure those are more frequent cop killers than the 5.7x28mm round...
 
According to the ATF's own documentation, the original round (SS190), as well as the subsonic (SB193) and tracer rounds (SS191), is an armor-piercing round.

Yes, that's not the round being discussed, the one referenced earlier is the SS192, that FN pulled from the commercial market under political pressure. It's the round that the attempted ban would have covered.

Brady Campaign mounted an attack on the SS192 ammo when, they claimed, it penetrated a Level IIA vest. Since that isn't the determining factor in defining whether or not something is "armor piercing", the ATF didn't do anything at all.

FN tested the SS192 and found that it would NOT penetrate the IIA vest, but they stopped selling it anyway, in 2005.

Since it was on the market for a while, then off the market, the common misconception is that the ATF pulled it, as the poster I replied to said.

That is not the case, it was not and has never been AP ammunition and the ATF did not pull it from the market.

The actual AP rounds have NEVER been legal to sell so the ATF would never have had a reason to "pull them from the market". I probably should have said "original civilian round" rather than just original round.
 
Are there "cop killer" varieties of cancer, heart disease, and auto accidents, and are they worse than the non-"cop killer" variants?

Because I am sure those are more frequent cop killers than the 5.7x28mm round...
I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make. I'm not disagreeing with you -- the 5.7 is no more a "cop-killer" than any other caliber. In fact, probably less so, because I'd imagine few thugs and hoodlums would even be aware of it.

What I'm saying is that, regardless of what we know, the BS on CNN will end up being accepted as the truth by uninformed and misinformed masses. Hell, people still think black talons were actually outlawed.
 
It still strikes me wrong that a field grade officer does this. Officers would not be known to commit this type of thing. The most rank I had ever seen commit anything was a couple of LTs in Korea steal a Humm-v and go to Seoul to party for the weekend.
...

It just don't fit.

I absolutely agree. He should be held to a higher standard in this regard and I suspect he will be. Part of accepting a commission is being willing to suck up a higher degree of "cognitive dissonance" than you will allow your soldiers or airmen to be subjected to. I do not mean to excuse murder in anyone else, but he especially has a lot of 'splainin to do if he ever wakes up.

A lot of attention has been focused on his religion. An angry and disturbed person will focus on whatever issues he/she has, like the idiot who shot up a Unitarian church because he was angry at liberals.

I suspect a lot more has to do with personal issues and the stress of being a mental health professional in the military. Shrinks have either the 1st or 2nd highest suicide rate among docs.

Again, I do not in any way mean to excuse or explain his despicable behavior. But, since I'm interested in preventing recurrences, it is good to look for themes and patterns in why people snap.

BTW: Did you mean to imply that the story was fishy in a manner suggesting additional collaborators or a greater conspiracy? Just curious.

Re: the FN 5.7 choice. That is interesting, since he was targeting people who he must have known would not be likely to wear any level of ballistic armor. It is not like he charged the front gate with a PS90.

I've always thought the 5.7 pistol was a fascinating design but a niche gun in some ways. Wonder if it'll be banned b4 I get around to affording one... Sorry, I don't really care compared to the level of tragedy those families are suffering. I just mean to say it is a very interesting pistol, that's all.
 
We need to keep the press honest in the coverage of this tragedy. Stand ready to Email your local press with facts regarding the pistol and round used by this madman.
I have read a lot of negative things about the media on this post and they are all correct. Before I start, I am not making excuses. I hope I can shed some light on what goes on in a newsroom and why some reporters do what they do and make the mistakes they do.
I used to be a newspaper reporter. I earned a degree in journalism, print media specifically. I had to leave because I couldn’t pay my bills and I was sick of the blatant disregard of ethics by journalists.
There are many problems in American journalism right now, most notably a cut in staffing. At one time, you used to have many people who were experts in their fields who would edit raw copy before it went to print. Newspapers had a whole army of people who worked behind the scenes to protect their credibility. By the time I entered the scene, many of those staff had been cut. Instead of the many people working to put out a good product, my raw copy went to one copy editor (an overworked and under paid copy editor) and in many cases went right to print.
A second problem is that you have trouble advancing in journalism if you don’t find sensational stories. At the paper I worked at, a reporter made up a story that claimed the ground water had been polluted by the dump. She had no proof except that two people in the area had contracted cancer. She wrote her article and won a press award. The EPA stuck the bill on the town. It turned out the water quality was fine, but it cost the town a whole lot of money. She was able to get a better job because of the story and a bump in pay. For a while she was even teaching journalism at a university.
A third problem is that many journalists are arrogant. I remember a few years ago when Chai Soua Vang shot six hunters in Minnesota with an SKS. The local reporter who worked at a weekly paper wrote that an “SKS is like a 30-06 hunting rifle.” He said the rifle had a high capacity clip. I couldn’t let it go. I called the man and told him the article was well written except for the fact errors. He responded with, “Well who are you to tell me how to write?” I responded that I was a reporter too who wrote for a daily. I then explained the difference between the 7.62 x 39 and the 30-06. He was still a jerk and didn’t change the fact errors in the story. That story was on the wire service.
A fourth problem is lack of education. Most people who claim they are journalists don’t have the education to back it up. In many cases they have degrees, but their degrees don’t have anything to do with journalism. We even had people in our newsroom who had never earned a college education. Instead of paying reporters more money, newspapers and TV news stations just find someone who doesn’t have the education and pay less money. I know someone right now who didn’t finish high school and is working as a camera person at the local TV station.
Sorry about the rant. I just thought it might be nice to hear from a former insider.
 
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