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Echo9 said:
I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make. I'm not disagreeing with you -- the 5.7 is no more a "cop-killer" than any other caliber. In fact, probably less so, because I'd imagine few thugs and hoodlums would even be aware of it.

What I'm saying is that, regardless of what we know, the BS on CNN will end up being accepted as the truth by uninformed and misinformed masses. Hell, people still think black talons were actually outlawed.
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I think I'm actually making the same argument you are. The term "cop killer" has no relevance or truth, but instead is used just for fear mongering.
 
Cop killer handgun?

Cop killer bullet?

Misnomers!

It certainly didn't kill the cop who stopped the shooting, heroine police officer Kimberly Munley, despite being hit multiple times.

It appears this fact is lost on the Brady Bunch.
 
So who taught the Major to shoot?
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A book comes with the gun, generally. There are plenty of places to go shooting for practice.
Hitting unarmed targets would be fairly easy, assuming they are bunched up.

Let's not assume a vast conspiracy behind one guy going off his rocker ... it leads to paranoia and Big Brother BS like the PATRIOT act.
 
I have read a lot of negative things about the media on this post and they are all correct. Before I start, I am not making excuses. I hope I can shed some light on what goes on in a newsroom and why some reporters do what they do and make the mistakes they do.
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That and as a general rule the mass media are a bunch of antis teetering over the left edge.
 
I remember a few years ago when Chai Soua Vang shot six hunters in Minnesota with an SKS. The local reporter who worked at a weekly paper wrote that an “SKS is like a 30-06 hunting rifle.” He said the rifle had a high capacity clip. I couldn’t let it go. I called the man and told him the article was well written except for the fact errors. He responded with, “Well who are you to tell me how to write?” I responded that I was a reporter too who wrote for a daily. I then explained the difference between the 7.62 x 39 and the 30-06. He was still a jerk and didn’t change the fact errors in the story. That story was on the wire service.
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It was in Wisconsin. From what I heard it was an SKS with a 20 round clip/mag/ whatever you wanna call it, but on wikipedia, they're saying it was a saiga.

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape with the media getting facts wrong... I'm surprised this is actually news on here, the media throws whatever they can on the screen asap to break a story first, then they'll say whatever they can to get ratings and scare people... even if that means saying a bunch of people were killed with a "automatic, cop killer, armor piercing, machine gun"
 
Shhh. Some reporter hears you saying "automatic, cop killer, armor piercing, machine gun," they'll start repeating it. They're like children.
 
Opps

You' re right Redlion. It was Wisconsin. The idiot was from St. Paul Minnesota. My mistake It was originally reported as a SKS, but later found out to be a Saiga. That didn't stop some people from trying to call for a ban on the SKS. When I had the discussion with the reporter, everyone was reporting it was an SKS. What really made me mad was when he said the SKS is like a 30-06 hunting rifle. The last time I checked, an SKS wasn't a cartridge.

I did find one of the original stories from 2004 online. It illustrates how stupid some reporters are. "Meier says the weapon used was a Chinese style SKS semi-automatic rifle. Its clip holds 20 rounds. When recovered, the clip and the chamber were empty.It's not clear whether any of the deer hunting party returned fire."

Yes I know that you can get detachable mags for an SKS, but I have never seen a 20 round stripper clip (sarcasm). In their rush to get the story out, they couldn't even find out what type of rifle was used. They couldn't even get the country where the rifle had been produced (Saiga-Russia, SKS in story China). Did they just make it up? Often times I wonder if they just throw dice and make a decision and hope they are right. When that fool shot up the holocaust museum I remember reading some intitial reports that he used an AK.

It seems that nine times out of ten when firearms are involved the media gets it wrong.
 
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Noveldoc said:
... Interviews with his cousin make it clear the Major did not have any experience with firearms. The military gives no training to military docs and does not issue them weapons.
...
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That is not entirely true. You are correct in spirit, in that it is not frequent or required at the same level as in some other specialties or in the "line" military.

But medical corps personnel in several services do receive training at different times. My guard unit does "just in time" training of all the med group folks (MC and otherwise) prior to deployment these days. Some folks seek out opportunities earlier.

Some docs and ex-docs I know have a considerable amount of experience. I know that even lab med docs in the Army were doing M9 and M16 familiarization in the 80's. But I suspect it is less nowadays... Certainly, they can avoid all but the basics now if they want to.

Then again, many military personnel in other areas are not exactly full-time shooters.

Regardless, although I have not yet heard a detailed and verified account of what happened, I am not sure this was any feat of marksmanship on this man's part.

Noveldoc said:
... Ain't about the pistol; we need to outlaw violent religious fanaticism. Lots of luck with that one.
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Yeah, the problem with that is that violence is already outlawed and the difference between what you mentioned and "religious fanaticism" (protected by the good old 1A) is pretty fuzzy sometimes. ;)
 
dkk73;
No tin foil hat for me, no conspiracy theory. It just doesn't fit the profile on this type of crime.
A Major with 16+ years service goes nuts cause he is being deployed? (he was ROTC in college and was 39 years old)
He was not promoted to a Field Grade rank without serving overseas.
I heard a report that he had a bad EER. So he goes on a shooting spree?
Did he recently become a Jihadi? Maybe but does a Colonel become a Scientologist? Not likely.
He was a Major in a medical service, it's not like he was going to be given an M4 and go on patrol.
The profile is all wrong. There has to be more to this story, I'm curious about the toxicology report. As a Psych he could order meds.
He gets a 5.7 and a 357 revolver? Isn't that kind of like John Wayne playing HALO?
Just random thoughts but it's weird.
 
The shooter was a jihadist and a terrorist, along with being a traitor to his country. Why do people think that in order to be a terrorist one must belong to an organization of sorts?
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You forgot "coward". Notice he didn't carry out this act at the qualification range where the soldiers are armed. He had no armed opposition (for three minutes I hear) until the DA Police Sgt showed up with her own pistol.

As a cop, the 5.7 is one of my smallest worries; it rates about as much chance of killing me as an elephant round. The pistol is pricey enough to keep it from most criminals I have occasion to deal with. I also imagine the ammo is as hard to find as all the rest of the calibers.

I bet there'll be a push for soldiers to be armed on post now; and rightly so.
 
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Officers would not be known to commit this type of thing.
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Officers are humans with the same weaknesses as any other human, and enlisted are not subclass plebeian scum.

When I was in Kuwait two years ago, there was a LTC in pre-trial custody for rape. The only crime I saw committed out in town while I was in Korea (petty crime at that) was vandalism committed by a commissioned officer.

The wording of your post ("It just don't fit.") suggests you see some conspiracy to frame some upstanding "officer and gentleman," when clearly only an enlisted man could perpetrate such an atrocity.
 
Forgive me for being clinical but rape and vandalism is not mass murder.
I didn't say anything about enlisted being scum (I was an E-6 when I got out)
so don''t get your panties in a bunch.
I said that a Field Grade officer with 16+ years committing mass murder does not fit the profile. I'm in no way thinking that he did not do this or suggesting anyone framed a upstanding officer. This guy is a murdering pile of s@#t.

I am saying it has not happened before and does not fit the profile of the killings that have happened in the past.

Relax
 
I said that a Field Grade officer with 16+ years committing mass murder does not fit the profile.
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Seems like this particular guy fits the profile just fine. Plenty of red flags sent up...remains to be seen what, if anything was done about any of them, or who in a position to do anything was made aware of them.

I'm not aware of any enlisted mass murderers, so perhaps you can enlighten me how they better "fit the profile."

Mere rape, BTW, is among the most heinous of crimes. The fact that that particular dirtbag did it to a 19 year old girl who probably wasn't yet born when he got his commission I find particularly distasteful.

If you reread your original post impartially, I think you can see see where any misunderstanding came from.
 
Let's not forget another Muslim soldier that on the 1st day of invasion of Irak threw a hand grenade into a tent filled with fellow American soldiers, killing four of them. So this Hasan guy is not the first American Muslim service member to murder and commit treason.
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Yeah, that guy was a troublemaker who had some legal problems headed his way and hoped to head it off by killing his commander. He was an irresponsible punk who used his recent conversion to Islam as an excuse for all kinds of unacceptable behavior. He was kicked out of the school I taught at the Army Signal Center, and a former drill sergeant friend of mine was called as a witness at his trial when his attorneys tried to portray a "pattern of harassment" against their client. The only thing they came up with was a pattern of repercussions for his own actions.
 
On a different note, this incident reminds me of the puzzlement I have always felt when encountering "officers" with no leadership or command training or experience. Why does the .mil still commission doctors/psychiatrists/dentists, anyway? They aren't real officers, they aren't in the chain of command, they aren't career leaders, and while they do bring specialized skills to the .mil, there is no reason not to keep them as civilian employees under contract.

This case really throws a light onto the practice, perhaps it needs some re-thinking, and perhaps having a commissioned officer committing such a heinous crime will get the military to re-evaluate who they call an "officer" and who they don't.
(and no, I'm not just bitter about the awful medical care/dentistry I got from these "officers", I see an actual undermining of real command officers' authority/credibility)
 
On a different note, this incident reminds me of the puzzlement I have always felt when encountering "officers" with no leadership or command training or experience. Why does the .mil still commission doctors/psychiatrists/dentists, anyway? They aren't real officers, they aren't in the chain of command, they aren't career leaders, and while they do bring specialized skills to the .mil, there is no reason not to keep them as civilian employees under contract.

This case really throws a light onto the practice, perhaps it needs some re-thinking, and perhaps having a commissioned officer committing such a heinous crime will get the military to re-evaluate who they call an "officer" and who they don't.
(and no, I'm not just bitter about the awful medical care/dentistry I got from these "officers", I see an actual undermining of real command officers' authority)
 
bigfatdave said:
On a different note, this incident reminds me of the puzzlement I have always felt when encountering "officers" with no leadership or command training or experience. Why does the .mil still commission doctors/psychiatrists/dentists, anyway? They aren't real officers, they aren't in the chain of command, they aren't career leaders, and while they do bring specialized skills to the .mil, there is no reason not to keep them as civilian employees under contract.
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Ah, that's a bit over the top. At best, it may betray some ignorance about how the medical corps has to interact with the line in certain areas.

Not everyone in the military is an 11B. People in logistics, comms, medical, maintenance, etc., all are organized in a similar manner and are part of the same overall mission. MC have their own chain command which is integrated at several points. Is your comms squadron not "in the line of command"? I see your point but it's made a bit disparagingly.

I would suggest your definition of "career leader" is a bit narrow. I agree that people drawn to leadership independent of specialty are more likely to be found in the line than MC, NC, MSC, etc.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I am not sure how relevant this general disparaging of the USA MC leadership's skills is to Maj Hasan's criminal behavior. If you think I'm missing your point, please feel free to PM me and we can continue this discussion.

As for why they are not contractors? If you think outside the clinic in-garrison context, you might consider deployability and responsibility. Stateside bases already outsource a lot of medical to civvies. Believe me, if you got your way there would be a whole lot less medical resources available to the military.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
Cop killer bullet?

Misnomers!

It certainly didn't kill the cop who stopped the shooting, heroine police officer Kimberly Munley, despite being hit multiple times.

It appears this fact is lost on the Brady Bunch.
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Excellent point and you are right, facts are generally lost in the emotion with that group.
 
I just threw this in here as some reference matrerial seeing as how the "terrorist" idea is suggested in reference to the Major. The following is from Iowa state law 708A (1)(3).

"Terrorism" means an act intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, or to influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion, or to affect the conduct of a unit of government, by shooting, throwing, launching, discharging, or otherwise using a dangerous weapon at, into, or in a building, vehicle, airplane, railroad engine, railroad car, or boat, occupied by another person, or within an assembly of people. The terms "intimidate", "coerce", "intimidation", and "coercion", as used in this definition, are not to be construed to prohibit picketing, public demonstrations, and similar forms of expressing ideas or views regarding legitimate matters of public interest protected by the United States and Iowa constitutions.
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I watched The McLaughlin Group on PBS today.

Eleanor Clift said that Hasan used "Saturday night specials"
(responsable journalist):scrutiny:

I don't know what revolver he used but isn't the FN pricey gun?
 
Those are Saturday Night Specials for Field Grade officers with 16+ years committing mass murder and who do not fit the profile, maybe?
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Those of us taking this too personally probably needed that. :p
 
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