TheCpaNextDoor
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It sounds like 308 is more reliable in autoloaders and can do black bear better. Any truth to this?
For AR pattern rifle .308 better than 6.5 creedmoor?
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horsemen61
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If it were me I’d have a 6.5 Creedmoor but that’s me ymmv either or will work on black bear I’d say
Flintknapper
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For purely hunting purposes (under 400 yards) the .308 is going to be mighty hard to beat. At shorter distances (typical Black Bear distance, 150 yds. and under) there is no contest, the .308 brings a lot more to the table.
For long range use...6.5 CM.
MCgunner
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I honestly don't understand the clamor over 6.5 Creedmore. Did we not already have the .260 Remington in a short action based on the .308 cartridge? Ballistics seem similar. Then, if you wanna beat that in a 6.5, there's the .264 Win Mag, all be it a long action belted magnum. THAT brings a "lot more to the table" than .308 OR 6.5 CM.
I guess I just don't get it. I'm SURE the .260 Remington could be chambered in an AR10, or am I full of beans on that? It's chambered in short action bolt guns like the M7 Remington, you'd think it would work in an AR10 action.
I guess I just don't get it. I'm SURE the .260 Remington could be chambered in an AR10, or am I full of beans on that? It's chambered in short action bolt guns like the M7 Remington, you'd think it would work in an AR10 action.
Flintknapper
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MCgunner wrote:
I honestly don't understand the clamor over 6.5 Creedmore. Did we not already have the .260 Remington in a short action based on the .308 cartridge?
Yes.
Ballistics seem similar.
Yep.
Then, if you wanna beat that in a 6.5, there's the .264 Win Mag, all be it a long action belted magnum. THAT brings a "lot more to the table" than .308 OR 6.5 CM.
Yes...again. About 400 fps more than the CM.
I guess I just don't get it. I'm SURE the .260 Remington could be chambered in an AR10, or am I full of beans on that?
Not full of beans. It already exists..as does the 7mm-08 in a AR.
I am always intrigued (sometimes bewildered) by what set of circumstances accounts for one cartridge being accepted while another (almost identical) never really catches on... or falls out of favor for something supposedly 'superior'.
I honestly don't understand the clamor over 6.5 Creedmore. Did we not already have the .260 Remington in a short action based on the .308 cartridge?
Yes.
Ballistics seem similar.
Yep.
Then, if you wanna beat that in a 6.5, there's the .264 Win Mag, all be it a long action belted magnum. THAT brings a "lot more to the table" than .308 OR 6.5 CM.
Yes...again. About 400 fps more than the CM.
I guess I just don't get it. I'm SURE the .260 Remington could be chambered in an AR10, or am I full of beans on that?
Not full of beans. It already exists..as does the 7mm-08 in a AR.
I am always intrigued (sometimes bewildered) by what set of circumstances accounts for one cartridge being accepted while another (almost identical) never really catches on... or falls out of favor for something supposedly 'superior'.
CarJunkieLS1
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I've got a .260 Rem in an AR-10 so it's definitely possible. Also with the 260 i have no use for a 308.
troy fairweather
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i would do an ar-10 in 7mm08
MCgunner
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I'm all set up to reload .308, so that counts for something. 
But, I have a Remington stainless M7 in .308 and really prefer its sub 7 lb weight, barely over 7 with the optic, to any 8+ lb autoloader as a hunting rifle. I also kinda like its 3/4 MOA accuracy, but ARs are quite accurate, too.
But, I have a Remington stainless M7 in .308 and really prefer its sub 7 lb weight, barely over 7 with the optic, to any 8+ lb autoloader as a hunting rifle. I also kinda like its 3/4 MOA accuracy, but ARs are quite accurate, too.MCgunner
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Varminterror
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Feeding for 6.5 Creed in AR-10's is fine, that advantage for the 308win in that regard is nothing more than conjecture which has never played out in real world rifles. Black Bear don't take much killing, and high SD 6.5mm pills dig deep and kill plenty well for any Bruin.
I've had a lot of AR-10's, rarely have I enjoyed one in 308win in any of them, whether long, short, or in between. I really enjoy a 20" 338Fed, loved my 7-08 and 243win, very much enjoyed the 6.5 Creed so far, but very, VERY excited about my next AR-10 in 6 Creed.
If a person owns a 260, there's not much reason to buy a 6.5 Creed. But if you are buying new, there are a number of advantages for the Creedmoor which are foolish to ignore.
marksman13
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There’s no appreciable reliability difference between 308 and 6.5 CM ARs that I have seen. I went with a 6.5 CM from Falkor Defense purely because I intend to stretch this rifle out to 1200-1500 yards and I already own a SCAR-17 and M1A Scout which cover any need I may have for a 16”-18” barreled 308. Under 400 yards a 308 is going to be hard to beat in terms of a hunting rifle and would probably be my choice if I didn’f have rifles that already filled that niche. Reliability would not be any factor in my decision. It’s a non-issue with either cartridge.
Gtscotty
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That's kind of my take except with the 6.5, with the 6.5 I have no use for my .308s, and don't really feel they do anything better, except maybe very short barrels.
Flintknapper
Member
^^^^^ Smart!
To really take advantage of the 6.5 CM....a 24"-26" barrel is just the ticket.
The CM from inception was designed to be a Long Range 'target' cartridge. It fulfills that intent rather well. It doesn't hurt that it is gradually being used for hunting purposes as well.
But..in that vein, I don't see it offering anything over the .308 at common hunting distances (400 yds. or less).
The 6.5 CM was designed to 'shine' when it starts to stretch it's legs (700-1,000 yds. and more).
For hunting purposes...the .308 has nothing to fear from the 6.5 CM. If the CM is to unseat any currently popular cartridge it will be the 7mm-08 (my personal favorite for medium size game).
I burned out a number of M1a barrels earning my Distinguished Rifleman badge and never had a jam, or failure to extract. I shot it in the snow, and damn near died shooting it in 90 F + weather. Across the course competitors wear a quilted coat and a sweat shirt underneath, the sweat shirt absorbs the torrent of sweat that comes out of you in hot weather.
This is my "All GI" M1a
So, in this rifle, I have a lot of confidence in its function reliability and the 308 Win round. I also shot the AR15 in similiar weather, and I don't consider it as reliable as the M1a, but it has been developed to a high degree of function reliability. I have not shot the AR10 in 308 Win or 6.5 Creedmore, so I don't know how finicky either is in cold or hot weather. And that is important to me. I remember that David Tubb was shooting some 6.5 cartridge in a AR10 type platform, and had malfunction after malfunction. So he developed his Tubb rifle, which is a bolt gun.
One very real advantage of the 308 cartridge is a barrel life at least two times greater than a 6.5mm. Keep velocities reasonable, which you have to do in a gas gun, and your barrel life should be around 5000 rounds in a 308 Win. Also, while the trajectory of the 6.5mm is better the further you go out, which is great for paper punching, no one has shown tests in ballistic gelatin that the terminal ballistics, at distance, are equal to, worse, or better than, the 308 Win. The assumption is, that flat trajectory is somehow equal to lethality at distance, and I disagree with that assumption. I want to see which makes the bigger through hole at distance.
This is my "All GI" M1a
So, in this rifle, I have a lot of confidence in its function reliability and the 308 Win round. I also shot the AR15 in similiar weather, and I don't consider it as reliable as the M1a, but it has been developed to a high degree of function reliability. I have not shot the AR10 in 308 Win or 6.5 Creedmore, so I don't know how finicky either is in cold or hot weather. And that is important to me. I remember that David Tubb was shooting some 6.5 cartridge in a AR10 type platform, and had malfunction after malfunction. So he developed his Tubb rifle, which is a bolt gun.
One very real advantage of the 308 cartridge is a barrel life at least two times greater than a 6.5mm. Keep velocities reasonable, which you have to do in a gas gun, and your barrel life should be around 5000 rounds in a 308 Win. Also, while the trajectory of the 6.5mm is better the further you go out, which is great for paper punching, no one has shown tests in ballistic gelatin that the terminal ballistics, at distance, are equal to, worse, or better than, the 308 Win. The assumption is, that flat trajectory is somehow equal to lethality at distance, and I disagree with that assumption. I want to see which makes the bigger through hole at distance.
I've not heard anything about the 6.5 being less reliable in a semi. If so then the 308 MAY have that advantage. Comparing the 2 rounds the best thing we can say about 308 is that it is almost as good as the 6.5 CM out to about 500 yards. Not any better on any size game, but just almost as good. Beyond 500 the 6.5 pulls ahead. And this is coming from a guy who loves 308 and owns 4 of them. But I can read. I also own a 6.5 and have personal experience with it too.
The 6.5 does just fine with 20" barrels. It gets its performance by retaining speeds down range, not by starting fast at the muzzle. If we compare 147 gr 6.5's to 150 gr 308 the 308 starts out with a 150 fps advantage. The 6.5 surpasses it at about 150-175 yards and the much better Sectional Density of the 6.5 means better penetration than 308 at any range. So much for the comments that 6.5 is only an advantage at 700+ yards. If we compare the most common bullet weights used in both the 6.5 spanks 308 at any range. And does it with 20% less recoil.
If you move up to really good 180 gr .308 bullets then you get similar penetration and performance out to about 500 yards where the 6.5 starts to pull away. But once you get to 180's in a 308 compared to 140's in a 6.5 the recoil difference is even more noticeable. But performance wise the 308 never does anything BETTER than 6.5 CM at any range, with any ammo. It will equal it with proper bullet choice. The only thing 308 does better is give longer barrel life. But if I can afford the ammo to wear out a barrel on either, the cost of a new barrel isn't a big deal.
As a hunting round the 6.5 should be compared as 270 instead of 308. It shoots similar bullet weights to 270 around 200 fps slower at the muzzle, but the better BC's of the 6.5 bullets mean it catches up in speed at around 200 yards.. Both are close to the same diameter, 6.5mm vs 6.8mm. But the better SD's of the 6.5 means better penetration at all ranges. In a nutshell anything a 270 will kill, a 6.5 CM will kill. And 270's have been killing elk, moose and bear since 1925. The similar 6.5X55 has been doing it since the 1890's
It is really quite simple, and the 6.5 isn't based on the 308 cartridge. The 260 is and that is it's achilles heel. The 260 was designed to shoot 120 gr hunting bullets into whitetails. Long range target shooters found that by loading very high BC 140-150 gr bullets in 260 cases they could drastically improve performance. But there were 2 serious problems. The long bullets wouldn't fit in 260 magazines unless they were seated so deeply that it reduced powder capacity to the point where velocity was severely limited. Plus the factory 260 barrels had the wrong twist rate to shoot them accurately.
The solution was to build custom rifles in 260 with properly twisted barrels, modified magazines and chamber throats designed for the bullets to be seated out farther than 260 specs called for. Then they had to load non spec 260 ammo that could not safely be loaded or fired in factory rifles. These target shooters approached Hornady and rifle manufacturers and asked them to develop a cartridge and factory rifle that could be bought off the shelf that would duplicate what they were doing with custom rifles and ammo. The 6.5 CM was the answer.
This isn't a case of a manufacturer making something and pushing it on shooters. In this case highly skilled shooters went to manufacturers and said, "This is what we need, build it".
The 6.5 does just fine with 20" barrels. It gets its performance by retaining speeds down range, not by starting fast at the muzzle. If we compare 147 gr 6.5's to 150 gr 308 the 308 starts out with a 150 fps advantage. The 6.5 surpasses it at about 150-175 yards and the much better Sectional Density of the 6.5 means better penetration than 308 at any range. So much for the comments that 6.5 is only an advantage at 700+ yards. If we compare the most common bullet weights used in both the 6.5 spanks 308 at any range. And does it with 20% less recoil.
If you move up to really good 180 gr .308 bullets then you get similar penetration and performance out to about 500 yards where the 6.5 starts to pull away. But once you get to 180's in a 308 compared to 140's in a 6.5 the recoil difference is even more noticeable. But performance wise the 308 never does anything BETTER than 6.5 CM at any range, with any ammo. It will equal it with proper bullet choice. The only thing 308 does better is give longer barrel life. But if I can afford the ammo to wear out a barrel on either, the cost of a new barrel isn't a big deal.
As a hunting round the 6.5 should be compared as 270 instead of 308. It shoots similar bullet weights to 270 around 200 fps slower at the muzzle, but the better BC's of the 6.5 bullets mean it catches up in speed at around 200 yards.. Both are close to the same diameter, 6.5mm vs 6.8mm. But the better SD's of the 6.5 means better penetration at all ranges. In a nutshell anything a 270 will kill, a 6.5 CM will kill. And 270's have been killing elk, moose and bear since 1925. The similar 6.5X55 has been doing it since the 1890's
It is really quite simple, and the 6.5 isn't based on the 308 cartridge. The 260 is and that is it's achilles heel. The 260 was designed to shoot 120 gr hunting bullets into whitetails. Long range target shooters found that by loading very high BC 140-150 gr bullets in 260 cases they could drastically improve performance. But there were 2 serious problems. The long bullets wouldn't fit in 260 magazines unless they were seated so deeply that it reduced powder capacity to the point where velocity was severely limited. Plus the factory 260 barrels had the wrong twist rate to shoot them accurately.
The solution was to build custom rifles in 260 with properly twisted barrels, modified magazines and chamber throats designed for the bullets to be seated out farther than 260 specs called for. Then they had to load non spec 260 ammo that could not safely be loaded or fired in factory rifles. These target shooters approached Hornady and rifle manufacturers and asked them to develop a cartridge and factory rifle that could be bought off the shelf that would duplicate what they were doing with custom rifles and ammo. The 6.5 CM was the answer.
This isn't a case of a manufacturer making something and pushing it on shooters. In this case highly skilled shooters went to manufacturers and said, "This is what we need, build it".
earlthegoat2
Member
I did a fair amount of research before I purchased my AR10 (CMMG Mk 3). Initially I was angling toward 6.5. I thought I needed to jump on the current bandwagon and the numbers were compelling but figured for my uses, which was woods hunting of deer and hogs, the .308 was more logical.
I plan on using 165 or 168gr bullets and setting up the rifle with a decent fixed stock and 20” medium weight barrel.
I still think though, with all else being equal, you are giving up very little with the 6.5 with a pretty good bit less felt recoil. I wanted the maximum amount of component options (barrels mainly) as well and right now the .308 still has that though I think the 6.5 will surpass it in a short time.
I plan on using 165 or 168gr bullets and setting up the rifle with a decent fixed stock and 20” medium weight barrel.
I still think though, with all else being equal, you are giving up very little with the 6.5 with a pretty good bit less felt recoil. I wanted the maximum amount of component options (barrels mainly) as well and right now the .308 still has that though I think the 6.5 will surpass it in a short time.
The 6.5 Creed vs .260 Rem story is the same one as the 243 Win vs 6 mm Rem.
The 6.5 and 243 are more versatile.
You'd think Remington would learn to introduce rounds that'll shoot all the bullets available in a caliber.
The 6.5 and 243 are more versatile.
You'd think Remington would learn to introduce rounds that'll shoot all the bullets available in a caliber.
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Loyalist Dave
Member
I'm very old school when it comes to projectile thinking. For a bear I'd be looking at .458 SOCOM. I know...antiquated thinking...... I like .308 and in fact I have a bolt-action scout rifle in that caliber.
LD
I know...antiquated thinking...... I like .308 and in fact I have a bolt-action scout rifle in that caliber.LD
MCgunner
Member
I'm very old school when it comes to projectile thinking. For a bear I'd be looking at .458 SOCOM.
LD
I figured you'd want it in .50 so you could shoot a patched round ball.
Personally, I just ain't in to ARs that much and I've pretty much written off the AR10 due to excessive weight. It's as heavy as my SKSs. My .308 bolt gun is much handier. I have a .223 M4 and have considered a .450 Bushmaster or .458 SOCOM upper just for hogs in the woods, OR maybe a 7.62x39 upper for same. I hunt 'em now with a 7.62x39, my night hunting rig, SKS with green laser on it. It's heavy, but I'm sitting in a blind with a gun rest.
Loyalist Dave
Member
Well I'd like a .530 round ball and to be in a tree stand,
BUT if we're talking AR platforms, I'd like the .450 SOCOM...., or .450 Bushmaster, but I found a whole lot more of different ammo for the SOCOM than the bushmaster when I took a quick look, and I like to handload, so I like the variety of bullets in .458. <there is no "shrug" emoji>
LD
BUT if we're talking AR platforms, I'd like the .450 SOCOM...., or .450 Bushmaster, but I found a whole lot more of different ammo for the SOCOM than the bushmaster when I took a quick look, and I like to handload, so I like the variety of bullets in .458. <there is no "shrug" emoji>
LD
redneck2
Member
Bears aren’t hard to kill. I used a .30-30.
You aim for that little pink spot under their ear. Makes tracking easy. Wherever they were standing, that’s where they end up. Goofs it up though if you wanna score the scull
You aim for that little pink spot under their ear. Makes tracking easy. Wherever they were standing, that’s where they end up. Goofs it up though if you wanna score the scull
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Flintknapper
Member
Well I'd like a .530 round ball and to be in a tree stand,
BUT if we're talking AR platforms, I'd like the .450 SOCOM...., or .450 Bushmaster, but I found a whole lot more of different ammo for the SOCOM than the bushmaster when I took a quick look, and I like to handload, so I like the variety of bullets in .458. <there is no "shrug" emoji>
LD
Yes, for the hand-loader...there is a plethora of .458 bullets available. I load about 10 different bullets for my SOCOM but have 3-4 that I like best.
Those who prefer the .450 Bushy (and hand load) will point out that they can 're-size' .458 bullets and use them, but who wants to go through an extra step for no other gain than bullet selection.
The SOCOM will handle anything from a (100 grain Lehigh) up to a 600 gr. bullet. Most folks prefer a 300 grain bullet or the 405 gr. bulk Remington (my favorite).
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MCgunner
Member
I just kinda think a 300 grain .451" Hornady XTP is pretty awesome out of a .45 red hot Colt load and can't figure how it'd be any worse out of a Bushmaster.
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