For those who want to stop the "mentally ill" from firearms

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I am not advocating the seizure of firearms from citizens who already own them.
As a personal aside while I was in Treatment for "Polysubstance Abuse" and in therapy for depression I gave my guns to my oldest brother for safekeeping. We have a standing agreement that If I am ever hospitalized again for either of these conditions He Gets my Guns out of my house before I get home from the Hospital. They are not returned until we are both Satisfied that it is OK.

I agree. This is very similar to what I did with my firearms back when I was first diagnosed and hadn't yet come to grips with it. The point being this is the common sense solution for the majority of the population...with no need for the government to get involved.

For those cases where someone is intent on doing themselves harm...is taking the firearm going to prevent them from suicide if they are truly intent on it? If the person is obviously intent on doing harm to others then this person needs to be incarcerated.
 
But What is a Reasonable Common Sense position IF the government, ie the Court does get invloved? What if a person becomes too Decompensated to be left to their own devices?
How do we proceed in these cases?
 
"How does that figure in to this conversation? I want to prevent Schizophrenics from PURCHASING firearms. Which is what the NICS and the DOJ are attempting to do. If they are Adjudicated Mentally Ill they are in court for commiting a crime no matter how Minor, Otherwise they would not be in court in the First Place!!!!!"

Do you really mean all persons with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, or just the ones in bad shape that have to be involuntarily committed? There are numerous people with schizophrenia working and functioning getting along in the world.

That's NOT what NICS and the government is attempting to do. They only want to list the ones who end up adjudicated/committed. That's a technical term with a specific meaning. It does NOT mean diagnosed by a doctor.

They're NOT in court for committing a crime. They're before a judge or hearing officer because they aren't taking care of themselves or maybe threatening to commit a crime or suicide or murder.

Did that clear things up some?

John
 
For those cases where someone is intent on doing themselves harm...is taking the firearm going to prevent them from suicide if they are truly intent on it?

No. When called to intervene however, the systems cannot simply ignore such a threat and walk away with a wave and a "see you on the other side." And, in circumstances where individuals are suicidal and mentally ill, suicide SHOULD be thwarted in that the individuals so inclined are only temporarily of this mindset DUE to mental illness. Their decision to take their life is often no more an informed or intelligent choice than their decision to remove their clothing in public, spend their entire assistance check on lottery tickets, etc.

If the person is obviously intent on doing harm to others then this person needs to be incarcerated.

And they typically are. And when they are returned to a state of relative normalcy they are typically released. And they typically remain that way for a variable period of time; dependent upon how long they take their medication, avoid catalysts, etc. And then they are typically locked back up again. Typically over and over.
 
John,
"Do you really mean all persons with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, or just the ones in bad shape that have to be involuntarily committed? There are numerous people with schizophrenia working and functioning getting along in the world."
Agreed,
Again, Adjuducated a Danger to Themselves or Others, this is at best a transient state as my work with Schizoprenics will support. In Minnesota people are usally diagnosed by a doctor and said doctor usually supports the commitment. Thus they are both Diagnosed and Adjudicated Temporarily Mentally Ill.
What is an appropriate time frame to reassess Mental State for the purposes of this discussion? Not my Purview to say. But I would support it as I support a felon having civil liberties reinstated in certain cases.
As Always it should be a case by case basis but certain benchmarks need to be in place Both at the outset and for the review process.
 
My other concerns...who is going to pay for the maintenance and upkeep of this system. Hopefully, there would be a review system in place for restoration of rights. Will the doctor that said "he's ok" be granted immunity if "he" winds up being NOT ok so they don't deny everyone to protect their own interests?
 
"who is going to pay for the maintenance and upkeep of this system."

We are already paying for it... that is why I advocate codefying and clarifying as opposed to enacting new legislation. If what we have is broken lets fix it, not throw it out, or heap more on.
 
Mr. Chu's "commitment" records are now on the internet. Can anyone tell me the name of his legal counsel at the proceeding at which he permanently lost his right to possess a firearm???

I'll bet $10 you can't.
 
Do you really honestly want a paranoid schizophrenic in a decomensated state to be able to purchase a firearm?

In case you weren't paying attention, that there is a textbook example of a Straw Man.


I don't oppose laws that will keep guns out of the hands of the truly, dangerously insane. I just don't want to see honest, decent people's rights taken away by casting too wide a net (and thats the tendency for this type of government action).

In addition, I don't believe that any law will stop the truly, dangerously insane from acquiring guns (or other means of violence).



I often see the phrase "Adjudicated a Danger to Themselves or Others" bandied about in this type of discussion ... just keep in mind that there are plenty of mental health professionals in positions of power in practice and in academia that would gladly tack that moniker on any one of us based solely on our interest in firearms and our desire to carry one.
 
Can anyone tell me the name of his legal counsel at the proceeding at which he permanently lost his right to possess a firearm???

???

The point being what exactly?

In every jurisdiction I've been in, civil commitment, mental health proceedings, etc. are closed... much like juvenile hearings, dependency hearings, etc. I've taken legal custody (and petitioned jurisdiction) of xxx number of children from their abusive parents, petitioned the civil commitment of dozens of high-risk sex offenders, and participated in umpteen mental health commitments. Without very official purpose, you couldn't access the details of a single one of those cases and I promise you they were extremely adversarial.
 
I often see the phrase "Adjudicated a Danger to Themselves or Others" bandied about in this type of discussion ... just keep in mind that there are plenty of mental health professionals in positions of power in practice and in academia that would gladly tack that moniker on any one of us based solely on our interest in firearms and our desire to carry one.

I keep hearing this. Who exactly are these "...plenty of mental health professionals in positions of power...?"
 
"In Minnesota people are usally diagnosed by a doctor and said doctor usually supports the commitment. Thus they are both Diagnosed and Adjudicated Temporarily Mentally Ill."

But the point is the doctor does not order the commitment, a judge/hearing officer does after hearing the evidence. It's a legal proceeding that's addressed by the law, not just some label scribbled in a file. The dead horse I/we keep beating is the difference between having a diagnosis (and maybe voluntarily going for treatment) and getting a legal order slapped on you requiring confinement/treatment => aka involuntary commitment.

John

P.S. - Right, good luck finding the name of the murderer's lawyer or if he waived representation. I haven't looked yet, it might be available.
 
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Can you cite the relevant statute or regulation?
Good Lord

But if you insist... yes, as a matter of fact I can:

US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 103, Section 2113(b).

Whoever takes and carries away, with intent to steal or purloin, any property or money or any other thing of value exceeding $1,000 belonging to, or in the care, custody, control, management, or possession of any bank, credit union, or any savings and loan association, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
gc70
Senior Member

Hey, CFriesen, let me know when you find a "blank and unused withdrawl slip" at a bank that has a "value exceeding $1,000."

CFriesen
Senior Member
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The wanton, and often convenient, absence of reading comprehension in this forum is frequently no less staggering.

CFriesen: He's right, you're wrong. Learn to read English.

PS: before you tell me I'm wrong, look at what I do for a living;) He's right. You're wrong.

Now, please read this:

http://www.pierrelemieux.org/artlovers.html

question 19f asks: "During the past two years, have you experienced a divorce, a separation, a breakdown of a significant relationship, job loss or bankruptcy?"

Now, tell yourself, "It can't happen here."

Oh, wait:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Allen


"Neighbors and outside observers question whether the police actions, designed to coax Allen out in her depressed state, might instead push her over the edge. 'The tactics are awful,' said John Snyder, a psychology professor at Southern Illinois University and a crisis-intervention expert. 'If she was paranoid before, she has a real reason to be paranoid now. You think people are out to get you, then you find out they really are. Whatever may have been wrong with her before is going to be more wrong now. They need to send in a mental health care professional -- not more police.'
from http://www.newsmakingnews.com/archive1,21,01,1,31,01.htm

She kept her guns. All it cost her was dignity, time and a lot of money. The system works!

BTW: Having dealt with the ATF professionally on several occasions...I'm up there with the OK Dem who called them "Jack booted thugs."

And I don't buy that Marxian religious belief about, "gap between poor and rich causes crime," either. You also fail to account for how crime rates GO DOWN when firearm restrictions are relaxed...just because CA will always be worse than VT doesn't mean CA won't improve.

Out of fairness, I'll wait for a reply. Out of honesty, I'll warn you I expect to add you to my ignore list shortly, because I don't believe you have much to add to the debate.
 
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Quote:
Can you cite the relevant statute or regulation?
Good Lord

But if you insist... yes, as a matter of fact I can:

US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 103, Section 2113(b).

Whoever takes and carries away, with intent to steal or purloin, any property or money or any other thing of value exceeding $1,000 belonging to, or in the care, custody, control, management, or possession of any bank, credit union, or any savings and loan association, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
Quote:
gc70
Senior Member

Hey, CFriesen, let me know when you find a "blank and unused withdrawl slip" at a bank that has a "value exceeding $1,000."
Quote:
CFriesen
Senior Member
Quote:
The wanton, and often convenient, absence of reading comprehension in this forum is frequently no less staggering.
CFriesen: He's right, you're wrong. Learn to read English.

PS: before you tell me I'm wrong, look at what I do for a living He's right. You're wrong.

Hey Mr. knife-making author... I'm not sure how well you write, but you don't read well. The SECOND portion of the statute, the part in RED FONT is the pertinent portion. Read again, and do it CAREFULLY this time Mr. Author.

Out of fairness, I'll wait for a reply. Out of honesty, I'll warn you I expect to add you to my ignore list shortly, because I don't believe you have much to add to the debate.

Feel free to ignore me.

Goodnight.
 
"PS: before you tell me I'm wrong, look at what I do for a living"

You write fiction?

Hey, I get paid to write too, but it's not fiction... ;)

John
 
Anonymous Coward, there is no acceptable compromise on matters of rights.

To us, a "compromise" is always a net loss, and frankly, we're rather sick of it.
 
Fair enough. I assumed the red text, which was almost identical text, was a repeat. The trick in debate is to quote the RELEVANT text, then add context if needed. The part that was quoted and requoted DID specify "over $1000."

However, I'll call the argument spurious, as those slips are provided for client use and handed out like candy. I suppose if you went in and "Stole" one without an account at the bank, they could in theory charge you.

Now, what jury would convict you?

And if you took all of them in the stack, the ACLU would defend your "right to express yourself."

Talk about a straw man argument.

I could make a BETTER argument that if you're given 14 days of scrip medicine, and have any in the bottle on Day 15, you can be charged with possession of narcotics. Go ahead, check your medicine cabinets.

Now, has THAT ever happened in all these busts cops have made over the years?

I also write nonfiction, including some on RKBA you may perhaps have read a few places. Fiction pays better. And I guarantee more people read my fiction than any psych journal;)
 
"I could make a BETTER argument that if you're given 14 days of scrip medicine, and have any in the bottle on Day 15, you can be charged with possession of narcotics."

Not in this state, and probably not in any state, if it was legally prescribed and is stored in the original container.

John
 
Fair enough. I assumed the red text, which was almost identical text, was a repeat. The trick in debate is to quote the RELEVANT text, then add context if needed. The part that was quoted and requoted DID specify "over $1000."

Yeah, I know. You need to read thoroughly in order to offer caustic qualified opinion on what you've claimed to have read however... with any efficacy in any event. Particularly if you are going to go on to intimate that your qualifications in reading comprehension are somehow advanced beyond reproach. It's called doing your homework.

And by the way... the "trick" in debate is not a trick; it is called having an idea what you are talking about.

However, I'll call the argument spurious... what jury would convict you?

The one comprised of individuals of equivalent mind to those who would restrict your RKBA for issues such as insomnia, social anxiety disorder, etc.

And if you took all of them in the stack, the ACLU would defend your "right to express yourself."

Much in the same way they would if you were committed to a mental health facility for fetishistic transexualism or the like.

I could make a BETTER argument that if you're given 14 days of scrip medicine, and have any in the bottle on Day 15, you can be charged with possession of narcotics. Go ahead, check your medicine cabinets.

*Sigh*

Yes... good for you. Very impressive. My goodness. Wow.

And, in the final analysis, that is exactly what we are talking about. Go back and READ the context. The assertion is that all of these are hypothetically possible potentialities, but sufficiently rare and improbable, that it is ridiculous to base the creation, limitation, and administration of law around them. READ.

I also write nonfiction, including some on RKBA you may perhaps have read a few places.

Congratulations. The few, the proud.

Fiction pays better. And I guarantee more people read my fiction than any psych journal

Fiction does indeed circulate and pay better. I'll admit I've never seen a psychiatry journal beside the Weekly World News at the grocery checkout.

I thought you were going to ignore me.
 
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And by the way... the "trick" in debate is not a trick; it is called having an idea what you are talking about.

Wrong.

When someone says, "Read this, it proves my point," I expect what they post to be immediately relevant to the subject. If you've ever done formal debate you're aware that time is limited and anything offered will be shredded.

At least two of us, one a professional (Which I am, regardless of your attempted denigration of my profession) were not clear on what you were offering.

There were two words different between the two paragraphs. The second paragraph appeared on presentation to be a repeat of the first, highlighted for emphasis. If you'd said, "Read paragraph two," I doubt the mistake would have been made.

You failed, by the way, to comment on Monsieur LeMieux's evidence that the Canadian government interviews former partners in regard to acquiring firearms, and that the State of IL has sent armed thugs after a woman whose family attested she was "unsound" without any supporting evidence. And her refusal to comply with their harassment was used against her.

But go ahead, post a couple more times about deposit slips. Straw men are a great way to avoid the substance of an issue.
 
When someone says, "Read this, it proves my point," I expect what they post to be immediately relevant to the subject. If you've ever done formal debate you're aware that time is limited and anything offered will be shredded.

I didn't offer anything as proof of point. I stated that the individual's reading comprehension was lacking and left it to him to figure it out.

*Edit: in recognition of your need for user-friendliness I will post my response in its entirety, and in blue font so as to preclude any errors in interpretation:

My post below:

The wanton, and often convenient, absence of reading comprehension in this forum is frequently no less staggering.

My post above.

If you read carefully, this is not an offer of anything... certainly not "read this, it proves my point". I expect we are all (primarily) big kids on this forum and have the ability to (usually) figure things out without pictures.

This is a forum where assertions are documented for posterity, it is not timed debate (hence your ability to respond to it a week following its original posting). It was YOUR poor assessment of the situation that led you to indulge yourself erroneously. You are free to read; to study as well or as poorly as you choose, and respond accordingly. If you botch the job it is your problem, not mine. It is not up to me to lead you by the nose to a point of understanding. Learn some responsibility.

At least two of us, one a professional (Which I am, regardless of your attempted denigration of my profession) were not clear on what you were offering.

I wasn't offering anything other than the statement that the individual exhibited poor reading comprehension. You took it upon yourself to champion his cause, and also exhibited poor reading comprehension. Bigger men have committed greater errors... learn to live with it and move on.

There were two words different between the two paragraphs. The second paragraph appeared on presentation to be a repeat of the first, highlighted for emphasis. If you'd said, "Read paragraph two," I doubt the mistake would have been made.

Ok then. I guess it is *MY* fault that you did not read accurately and spouted off. Good heavens man... show some character. Rest assured, and as noted, I will do my best to compensate for your limited investment in the future.


You failed, by the way, to comment on Monsieur LeMieux's evidence that the Canadian government interviews former partners in regard to acquiring firearms, and that the State of IL has sent armed thugs after a woman whose family attested she was "unsound" without any supporting evidence. And her refusal to comply with their harassment was used against her.

???

And what of it???

I'm not sure what you wish to demonstrate in your presentation of Pierre Lemieux's article, but I can assure you, as a former Canadian, that the laws of this country, as well as the societal norms, are very considerably different than those of Canada.

You wish to be validated for your observation that governmental abuses can and will occur??? Well Bravo then! Keen eye!

Of course abuses occur. They always have and they always will. We have incarcerated wrongfully, undoubtedly executed wrongfully, persecuted and lauded wrongfully. And what??? We do not administrate the function of systems of social order, or the process and production of the underlying regulation and law, on the basis of obscure potentiality. Systems of order, and the general regulation thereof, encompass response to standard typology. If we were to limit all law and social regualtion on the basis of the worst case abuse scenario possible we would be unable to justify the continued support of law enforcement, police, child welfare, etc. That was, in fact, the basis of the original series of posts that you responded to.
 
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I thought you were going to ignore me.

No. Read what I said:

Out of fairness, I'll wait for a reply. Out of honesty, I'll warn you I expect to add you to my ignore list shortly, because I don't believe you have much to add to the debate.

CFriesen
Senior Member
Quote:
The wanton, and often convenient, absence of reading comprehension in this forum is frequently no less staggering.

Yes. Yes it is.;)

Hey, guess what? Even though it's technically illegal to sign someone else's signature without an authorization or POA, people do it all the time for friends, and that proves by extension that no one will abuse a law on mental illness and firearms! (Huh? Oh, hey, it's just like taking slips from a bank. Sort of. Mental illness. Bank slips. Signatures. See the connection?)

And you just did in effect say, "It can't happen here." Bravo.

And knowing nothing is going to persuade you

And now I AM going to ignore you.
 
And you just did in effect say, "It can't happen here." Bravo.

Ummm... ok then.


And knowing nothing is going to persuade you

And now I AM going to ignore you.

LOL.. well thank you for your learned attempt at educating me.

Bye bye.
 
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