Found an interesting website

[Nightcrawler]

Thought this might cause some discussion here. Chris' Firearms Opinion Page.

My bottom line advice to you is to buy the finest double-action automatic you can afford. Buy one with a 3 safety system -- a lock on the firing pin released by the trigger movement and a manual safety that locks the firing pin and blocks it from the hammer (or H&K's squeeze cocker). Leave the manual safety off when it is in a real holster attached to you. Insist on a loaded chamber indicator. Don't buy anything smaller than a 9 mm unless you want to piss someone off instead of stop them. Get a 10 mm (not .40 SW) with full load ammo if you have serious needs, say a S&W 1006. Look at guns from H&K, Beretta, SIG, S&W. Stay away from Glocks. Want me to pick out just one from the whole bunch? How about two? OK, the H&K P7M8 if you can afford it, a Beretta 92FS or 96FS if you have limited funds. (OK, that was three. . There is nothing finer made than the P7.

The guy's right. He could easily start a flame war.


Stirring the pot, stirring the pot...

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Thought this might cause some discussion here. Chris' Firearms Opinion Page.



The guy's right. He could easily start a flame war.


Stirring the pot, stirring the pot...

I know some people love Glocks but I agree with him. I do not like them. Like I have said before; I just do not like the cheap plastic feel, the overall fit and finish, nor the styling. A couple friends of mine are on the local police force and they use Glocks and both hate them. One is in aquisitions and told me the only reason police forces use them is because of price. Glock sells them to Portland at cost which is $73 per firearm. He said Glock is all PR...they use massive advertising to push a cheaply made product and make a fortune. Then even pay magazines and gun professionals to give favorable reviews. Of course I have no idea what other guns cost to make...maybe $73 is standard. I do not claim to be a firearms expert. I just know what I like and don't like. I am sure they are the perfect weapon for some people. There...a little fuel for the fire.

 

[jamz]

I disagree. The Hi-Point in .25ACP is the best gun ever.

-James

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

I know some people love Glocks but I agree with him. I do not like them.

Everyone has guns they like or don't like. "Dislike" is one thing.

Like I have said before; I just do not like the cheap plastic feel, the overall fit and finish, nor the styling.

There are more constructive criticisms of Glock, but... OK.

A couple friends of mine are on the local police force and they use Glocks and both hate them.

See two replies above.

One is in aquisitions and told me the only reason police forces use them is because of price.

Funny, since the Law Enforcement price (without excise tax, sales taxes, distributor costs, etc.) for most service handguns is comparable (within 40-50 dollars of each other for most service-type pistols).

Glock sells them to Portland at cost which is $73 per firearm. He said Glock is all PR...they use massive advertising to push a cheaply made product and make a fortune.

Pure BS.

Glock's cost to produce an individual handgun is approximately $130.

The LEO cost for them is about $250, which drops to about $240 when ordered in quantity (reduces cost of processing the order, etc.- same reason why groceries are cheaper in bulk).

Then even pay magazines and gun professionals to give favorable reviews.

That's an extremely serious accusation. In fact, that's the sort of accusation that gets journalists sued. Have any proof of this?

Of course I have no idea what other guns cost to make...

Obviously.

maybe $73 is standard.

I won't comment.

I do not claim to be a firearms expert. I just know what I like and don't like. I am sure they are the perfect weapon for some people.

Ditto.

There...a little fuel for the fire.

Indeed, your post has been excellent flame material.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

My bottom line advice to you is to buy the finest double-action automatic you can afford. Buy one with a 3 safety system -- a lock on the firing pin released by the trigger movement and a manual safety that locks the firing pin and blocks it from the hammer (or H&K's squeeze cocker). Leave the manual safety off when it is in a real holster attached to you. Insist on a loaded chamber indicator. Don't buy anything smaller than a 9 mm unless you want to piss someone off instead of stop them. Get a 10 mm (not .40 SW) with full load ammo if you have serious needs, say a S&W 1006. Look at guns from H&K, Beretta, SIG, S&W. Stay away from Glocks. Want me to pick out just one from the whole bunch? How about two? OK, the H&K P7M8 if you can afford it, a Beretta 92FS or 96FS if you have limited funds. (OK, that was three. . There is nothing finer made than the P7.

Well, you know what they say about opinions...



These opinions sound like they came from someone whose sole "experience" base consists of:

a) NRA membership;
b) Gun rag "information";
c) Action movies;
d) Gunshop commando "information";
e) Internet forum "information".

 

[psyopspec]

Well, you know what they say about opinions...

I too disagree with the gentleman on a few points, but keep in mind this opinion came from a third party web site. Maybe before we sit and tear him apart, or have a flame war, whomever started the thread should shoot off an e-mail and let him know what's being discussed he can weigh in before this thread falls completely off the deep end.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

(...)he can weigh in(...)

Oh, I would love that.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

He lost me at double action, caught me briefly at 10mm, but lost me again at "stay away from Glocks," which he didn't even support. His advice was apparently free and not even worth as much. Figures.

And Penguin, it is better for "cheap" guns to be cheap than expensive. I'd rather have a "$73" Glock than pay twice as much for the same quality and get something like an HK. Like Samuri, I am skeptical of your entire post. I bet it even made a "plop" sound when you posted it.

 

[EZ CZ75]

In original post-"Don't buy anything smaller than a 9 mm unless you want to piss someone off instead of stop them. Get a 10 mm (not .40 SW) with full load ammo if you have serious needs, say a S&W 1006."

I bet any BG would rather be missed by a 10mm than hit with a .22lr. Now there is logic that nobody can dispute!

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Everyone has guns they like or don't like. "Dislike" is one thing.



There are more constructive criticisms of Glock, but... OK.



See two replies above.



Funny, since the Law Enforcement price (without excise tax, sales taxes, distributor costs, etc.) for most service handguns is comparable (within 40-50 dollars of each other for most service-type pistols).



Pure BS.

Glock's cost to produce an individual handgun is approximately $130.

The LEO cost for them is about $250, which drops to about $240 when ordered in quantity (reduces cost of processing the order, etc.- same reason why groceries are cheaper in bulk).



That's an extremely serious accusation. In fact, that's the sort of accusation that gets journalists sued. Have any proof of this?



Obviously.



I won't comment.



Ditto.



Indeed, your post has been excellent flame material.

Glad you enjoyed the flame opportunity but play fair...from now on please either quote me in entirety or do not quote at all. The parts where I was repeating what someone else told me you singled out in quotes and made it appear that they were my words. It is not nice to use someones words out of context. I clearly stated that "he said". I made very clear that my own opinions of Glocks were simply personal opinion and presented the other statements as second hand information. As for the cost it is public record and PDX pays $73 apiece for their service Glocks. I have seen an actual invoice from my friend. maybe it is the usual price maybe it was a special one time deal. I stated I had no expertise in manufacturing costs. However if an officer has to pay to replace one he told me they are charged $115.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

(...) but from now on please either quote me in entirety or do not quote at all.

I did. The fact that I broke it down into smaller bits was just to make it easier to respond to, but every word you said was quoted.

The parts where I was repeating what someone else told me you singled out in quotes and made it appear that they were my words. It is not nice to use someones words out of context. I clearly stated that "he said". I made very clear that my own opinions of Glocks were simply personal opinion.

This is what is known as "backpedalling". You made assertions which have been proven false, and now you're "reiterating" that "your friend" said it.

Whether "your friend" said it, or you made it up yourself, it is factually incorrect. It's made-up.

As for the cost it is public record and PDX pays $73 a piece for their service Glocks. I have seen an actual invoice from my friend. However if an officer has to pay to replace one he told me they are charged $115.

Since it is "public record" and you've seen an invoice, then you'll have no difficulty in scanning the invoice and posting such.

Since it is not, and you have not, then you cannot, because it is not true.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I did. The fact that I broke it down into smaller bits was just to make it easier to respond to, but every word you said was quoted.



This is what is known as "backpedalling". You made assertions which have been proven false, and now you're "reiterating" that "your friend" said it.

Whether "your friend" said it, or you made it up yourself, it is factually incorrect. It's made-up.



Since it is "public record" and you've seen an invoice, then you'll have no difficulty in scanning the invoice and posting such.

Since it is not, and you have not, then you cannot, because it is not true.

How am I backpeddling? I did not change my original post and I clearly say "he said". I also do not remember saying I am in possession of the invoice...I said I "saw" one. Maybe you should work on the reading comprehension a little bit. Where is the information you are using to tell me I am wrong? Do you work for Multnomah County in Oregon? Do you purchase their firearms? Or maybe you work for Glock. We all know firearms employees post on these boards. I would be glad to take your word over his if this is the case. As for my opinions, I am entitled to them and I clearly presented them as such. I stated my opinion of the firearm in question and you are welcome to state yours. Instead you choose to attack a person instead of offering any counter points.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

How am I backpeddling? I did not change my original post and I clearly say "he said". I also do not remember saying I am in possession of the invoice...I said I "saw" one. Maybe you should work on the reading comprehension a little bit.

Uh huh.

Where is the information you are using to tell me I am wrong?

Available from Glock. Call them.

Do you work for Multnomah County in Oregon? Do you purchase their firearms?

I wasn't aware that wholesale price was different for Multnomah Co., OR, than for the rest of the nation. Is the entire concept of economics different there as well?

Or maybe you work for Glock. We all know firearms employees post on these boards. I would be glad to take your word over his if this is the case.

Reference above post about contacting Glock.

As for my opinions, I am entitled to them and I clearly presented them as such. I stated my opinion of the firearm in question and you are welcome to state yours. Instead you choose to attack a person instead of offering any counter points.

Uh huh.

I only pedal in one direction, unlike some folks.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

The only way I could believe $73 without seeing such an invoice would be if Glock sold them the pistols at this price in return for them trading in their previous service pistols. Turn in 100 SIGs or Smith and Wessons and get 100 Glocks for $73 a peice, something like that...

Otherwise, Glock is going to take a loss selling them at that price.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

The only way I could believe $73 without seeing such an invoice would be if Glock sold them the pistols at this price in return for them trading in their previous service pistols. Turn in 100 SIGs or Smith and Wessons and get 100 Glocks for $73 a peice, something like that...

Otherwise, Glock is going to take a loss selling them at that price.

Actually, Glock was doing something similar for a short while (read: about a year and a half)- they took old service revolvers in trade for new Glocks (free of charge), and resold the old revolvers for about the cost of the Glocks.

They broke even doing this, and in the long run it helped them famously- most of their law enforcement sales in the few years following were based on word-of-mouth about Glocks between officers of different departments.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Uh huh.



Available from Glock. Call them.



I wasn't aware that wholesale price was different for Multnomah Co., OR, than for the rest of the nation. Is the entire concept of economics different there as well?



Reference above post about contacting Glock.



Uh huh.

I only pedal in one direction, unlike some folks.

Nice one..."un huh"...did you have to get help with that? I guess some people just want to be pi$$ed about something. How sad, classless and not worthy of further comment. I stand by my original post...have a nice one.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Last post before I head to bed...

A quick Google search and like Roundeye, the only information I could find suggested it cost Glock about $130 or a little more to produce their pistol. They are sold to dealers for a little over $200 so from what I understand, they make about $70 per pistol. But they aren't sold for that much because it costs Glock twice that much just to manufacture the pistol.

I would like to see how much it costs SIG to make a P226 and HK to make a USP 40. Esp in the case of the HK, I know if it costs them too much more to make than the Glock, it is because the pistol is unnecessarily complicated--not because it is built a lot better.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

How sad, classless and not worthy of further comment.

No, "classless" is getting caught in a LIE and doing everything which you have done to weasel out of it.

But, since you've just stated that you're not going to continue responding to the thread, I'll leave it alone now.

On to bigger and better things.

 

[Optical Serenity]

You mean, I'm not a firearms expert because I've read every Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement issue the past two years and made sure I'm a lifetime NRA member? I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Last post before I head to bed...

A quick Google search and like Roundeye, the only information I could find suggested it cost Glock about $130 or a little more to produce their pistol. They are sold to dealers for a little over $200 so from what I understand, they make about $70 per pistol. But they aren't sold for that much because it costs Glock twice that much just to manufacture the pistol.

I would like to see how much it costs SIG to make a P226 and HK to make a USP 40. Esp in the case of the HK, I know if it costs them too much more to make than the Glock, it is because the pistol is unnecessarily complicated--not because it is built a lot better.

Actually, you can get the information right from the manufacturers, by calling them.

They're usually alot more amenable to giving information when someone has taken the time to place a phone call and speak to them directly, as opposed to emailing them.

As far as the "dealer's cost" of $200- actually, not. Glock's wholesale cost, without taxes, is about $250.

When Glock pays the taxes on the firearm (imported for commercial sale, as opposed to imported for government sale), and the cost of shipping the gun to a distributor, the cost goes up to about $300.

The distributor will put their own markup on it, typically about $50-$80, and then add the cost of shipping to the dealer, so the dealer's cost is about $360-$400.

Add on the dealer's markup and sales tax (if applicable), and you get the retail cost (MSRP).

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

You mean, I'm not a firearms expert because I've read every Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement issue the past two years and made sure I'm a lifetime NRA member? I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

ROFLMAO! That's PRICELESS!

 

[jeepmor]

I'd own a Glock for that price

I have to beleive the Portland price break, being I live here, and the guy claims he's seen an invoice. Governments get some sweet deals. As far as "greasing the palms" of the gun rag writers, I've no doubt this is done. However, I think it's more of the rep taking the client out and offering up an extravagant spoiling and very careful if not borderline "bribery" type techniques so typical of great salesman. Nothing illegal mind you, just a damn good sales rep. Glock is big, they can throw a lot of weight around and purposely undersell their competitors to insure that they have their product where they want it.

They look at it as an investment in the brand recognition that will foster more sales in the future. A bet on the future if you will. Take a loss now and get the brand out, then everyone will think. Cops use Glocks, Glocks are cool, I want one.....ka_ching! Orders start rolling in.

Why do you think a company like Intel donates umpteen thousand computers to countries like India and spends money creating PC centers in an otherwise impoverished nation where very few can possibly afford their product? Same reason, some day those folks are gonna come looking for the same PC they used in the library because it's "what they know" and it was good enough for "my library" type of analogy. Since so many of those buggers now hold what use to be American jobs.

jeepmor

ps - I don't like Glocks for their ergonomics, trigger and lack of chamber support. Real things I can see and feel, not just some marketing hype that sold me. I let the product speak for itself through folks in a place like this forum. Good products and reasonable prices sell themselves. Plus, it's gotta pass the "tacticool" test for me....just kidding, like a BG is gonna comment on my choice, he'll just see GUN! I actually make my decisions by filtering through all the praises, or lack of, on this sounding board by real folks with real opinions unaffected by advertising pressure like folks writing for gun rags. This is why I have a Witness 10mm enroute from Reedsammo.com (lil shameless plug here ) They are hard to find locally, but they are heavily praised here on the board for the best bang for the buck 10mm. And they have a service record in enforcement, so maybe I am a product of marketing after all, we'll see, it's not here yet.

 

[Ric]

Opinions are worth what they cost

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

I have to beleive the Portland price break, being I live here, and the guy claims he's seen an invoice. Governments get some sweet deals.

Wait, you believe the guy because of his claim to have seen an invoice?

Oh BTW- I have a 13" penis. I wrote about it on Literotica, so it MUST be true (by your logic).

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I have to beleive the Portland price break, being I live here, and the guy claims he's seen an invoice. Governments get some sweet deals. As far as "greasing the palms" of the gun rag writers, I've no doubt this is done. However, I think it's more of the rep taking the client out and offering up an extravagant spoiling and very careful if not borderline "bribery" type techniques so typical of great salesman. Nothing illegal mind you, just a damn good sales rep. Glock is big, they can throw a lot of weight around and purposely undersell their competitors to insure that they have their product where they want it.

They look at it as an investment in the brand recognition that will foster more sales in the future. A bet on the future if you will. Take a loss now and get the brand out, then everyone will think. Cops use Glocks, Glocks are cool, I want one.....ka_ching! Orders start rolling in.

Why do you think a company like Intel donates umpteen thousand computers to countries like India and spends money creating PC centers in an otherwise impoverished nation where very few can possibly afford their product? Same reason, some day those folks are gonna come looking for the same PC they used in the library because it's "what they know" and it was good enough for "my library" type of analogy. Since so many of those buggers now hold what use to be American jobs.

jeepmor

ps - I don't like Glocks for their ergonomics, trigger and lack of chamber support. Real things I can see and feel, not just some marketing hype that sold me. I let the product speak for itself through folks in a place like this forum. Good products and reasonable prices sell themselves. Plus, it's gotta pass the "tacticool" test for me....just kidding, like a BG is gonna comment on my choice, he'll just see GUN! I actually make my decisions by filtering through all the praises, or lack of, on this sounding board by real folks with real opinions unaffected by advertising pressure like folks writing for gun rags. This is why I have a Witness 10mm enroute from Reedsammo.com (lil shameless plug here ) They are hard to find locally, but they are heavily praised here on the board for the best bang for the buck 10mm. And they have a service record in enforcement, so maybe I am a product of marketing after all, we'll see, it's not here yet.

Nice to see another Northwesterner. Don't bother trying to reason with that other guy. He loves to chop up peoples statements and then attack them instead of looking at the nature of the post in it's entirety. My first post is very clear and everyone can read it for themselves. I doubt they will get the same from it that he did. He seems to lacking in the tact department and offers no evidence beyond "call the manufacturer". As if they are going to say "yeah, we make 'em cheap then mark 'em up for people just like you". The other guy before you even posted info he found on the net and he would not except that either. How gullible can he really be...he must just being trying to start trouble...or maybe he works for Glock and is just doing his job hatcheting anyone that dislikes a Glock.