Found - "FBI" Load

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scottishclaymore

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This weekend I managed to sufficiently ingratiate myself with the future Mrs. Scottishclaymore that she said it would be fine for me to swing by the Original Fort Worth Gun Show while she did some things before we went to dinner tonight. Needless to say I was pretty pumped that she'd let me do that on Valentine's day weekend... But she is more understanding than your average bear.

I went with a few specific purchases in mind - all revolver accessories. One of the things I was looking for was the old "FBI" load: .38 Special 158 gr. LSWCHP +P. As far as I've been able to find the research shows that this is one of the most effective rounds for the caliber. Since all of the centerfire handguns I own can fire .38 Special, I've been wanting to find some for quite a while now.

The real problem is that the things seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth in my area. I know Remington still manufactures the load (they and Buffalo Bore are the only people still doing so to my knowledge), but I haven't been able to find it at any gun store in the Metroplex.

In any case, at the gun show today I was perusing through all of the ammo tables, when I ran across what appears to be a very old (circa 70's?) S&W Ammo Box. The box is blue with white lettering, and reads, "38 SPECIAL +P, 159 GR SEMI-WADCUTTER, LEAD HOLLOW POINT, S38-158 SWCHP." I was pretty excited to find it, and the price was good, so I snatched it up and brought it home with me. The box looks retro enough to be added to my collection of old ammo boxes. I've since loaded all of my revolvers and speedloaders up with it.

Out of curiosity, does anybody have any information on this particular type of ammo and when it was first produced? I'm not sure, but like I said, the box looks at least as old as me - probably older.

In any case, I'm pleased to have found it. I've read a lot of good things about the performance of this round - though I sincerely hope I never get the chance to verify them on anything that matters.
 
Federal makes this load also. can find it locally for 16-17 bucks a box of 50
 
I have not found any that I recall...or, I would have brought 'em home too..!


Good find!


Hard TO find, indeed.

Info on the round would be at it's best if from knowledgeable people who have tested it privately, I'd imagine.

Advertising info may exist somewhere on the internet, but I have no links to offer.

Find someone to run a few rounds through a Chronograph and tell you the FPS..!
 
Georgia Arms still loads the 158gr LSWCHP +P (900fps) in both new brass ($28.50/100) and recycled brass ($22.50/100). They are probably still overwhelmed, so expect a delay in order filling. Still, the cheapest way to get 'real' practice ammo. I prefer Remington R38S12 +P 158gr LHPSWCs for carry - they are made of a softer lead - with better expansion from 2"-4" barrels. They both chrono within a few fps from my 1.9" - 6" .38/.357 Magnum S&Ws. The Remingtons run $34/50 locally - when in stock. That Federal variant mentioned has to be a really old price!

I have bought thousands of rounds of a wide range of calibers from GA Arms - never a bad round - or one as 'slow' as they state. They are nice folks, too - and I miss their attendance at the Birmingham gunshows - less than 100 miles from them.

Stainz
 
Georgia Arms...

I'll try them!

My re-loading is a seldom thing owing to Work-Family demands, so...

Thanks Stainz
 
Buffalo Bore also makes an excellent FBI load - a full 1000 FPS from a 2" barrel. It's even more of an a*s kicker out of the 4" barrel I carry now. A bit expensive at $24 for 20 but I like them better than any other SD ammo maker I've tried.

William
 
Here's some more info about "The FBI Load."

1. Given the sidearm carried by the FBI in the 70s, the ballistics were typically about 850-870 fps from a 2.5" barrel. These were, apparently, a bit hotter than the Plus-P specs of the day, and perhaps run about 22,000 PSI with today's measurement techniques.

2. Today's "FBI load"--the Rem 38S12, or the GA round--runs about 800 fps from a 2" barrel. (See Stephen Camp's tests as well; my chrono results of more-recently loaded ammo shows they barely break 800 fps from a 2" barrel, and may --or may not--get close to 900 fps from a 4" or longer barrel.)

3. The bullet used in the 70s was a swaged bullet--IOW, 'pressure formed' from nearly-pure lead, as opposed to cast bullets. The same type of bullets are available now, and the cartridge manufacturers use them--the Hornady brand typically, AFAICT. They lead barrels badly when run much over 900 fps.

4. Fortunately, this kind of round can be reloaded to meet those general ballistics with standard powders and the Speer or Hornady 158-gr. LSWC-HP bullets. There's no need to go past "Plus P" recipes--although rounds loaded to CIP specifications (>=21,750 PSI) will consistently run a bit faster.

5. the "real trick"--unavailable so far--would be for the factories to make a downloaded 357 Magnum round--e.g., set this up as a nominal 900 fps / 2" barrel spec. That's about the maximum round I want to fire consistently from a lightweight--and is entirely shootable from the steel small 357 frames.

Jim H.
 
I was down to ~1/2 a box of the remington FBI load last summer for all four of my .38's. I ordered 5 boxes from http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/...38-special-110-gr-sjhp-p-50-rds.aspx?a=213726 in August 2009. As with all ammo then, it was on backorder:( Last month they shipped all 5 boxes!!!! The six month wait was will worth it for that ammo.

As of today, the FBI is on backorder until 6/11/10 at the sportsmansguide.
 
In reference to the swaged SWC leading at higher velocities, would moly coating the bullets buy you some extra velocity and reduce/eliminate the leading? I'm not talking about running them at 1200fps, but 900-1000 might be doable with moly-coating.
 
My last batch of new Remi R38S12 ammo, from just over two years ago, yielded the following:

1.88" 642-2 822 fps
2" 10-11 860 fps
5" h-l 686-6 (+) 990 fps

The GA Arms I had just gotten in then made 997 fps from my 6" 66-6. These were for 5 round groups - and I didn't record their SD.

Stainz
 
If you shoot 'em between the shirt-pockets, pretty much any load will get the job done.

The "FBI load" was invented many years ago.
Most fixed-sight .38 Special revolvers will shoot to point of aim with that load.

However, if EXPANSION is any indicator of performance, the FBI load only works well if you shoot naked targets.

MODERN .38 Special loads in the 125-grain class expand the best in both bare and clothed medium.

See: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

38ammochart1smaller.jpg

38ammochart2smaller.jpg

38ammochart3smaller.jpg

38ammochart4smaller.jpg
 
Winchester sold a 158 LHPSWC "high velocity" load in the early 70s with "MS" in it's catalog number before the +P designation was in general use.
 
As I recall, the expansion of "FBI loads" is far more positive from 4" barrel guns than from snubbies. It's a great round by all accounts.

In my Colt snubbie, I load a standard pressure 200g LSWC-K, although some +P's wouldn't hurt it. I would feel very confident with FBI loads, for sure, and I've carried them in that gun. For that matter, I'd feel fine with the 129-130g +Ps, although I like the super-heavy's ability to crush bone & smash straight thru it, should it come to that. 110g would normally suit, I'm sure, but I personally prefer not to carry something that light.

I remember shooting a number of boxes of S&W .38 and/or .357 in the early 80s, and didn't have any problems with it. Unfortunately I don't recall any specifics.
 
Georgia Arms still loads the 158gr LSWCHP +P (900fps) in both new brass ($28.50/100) and recycled brass ($22.50/100). They are probably still overwhelmed, so expect a delay in order filling. Still, the cheapest way to get 'real' practice ammo.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the Georgia Arms stuff doesn't expand as well, especially from short barrels. I saw a writeup on it here and the photos of the bullets tell the story. I think they may use a harder lead. They'll give good penetration, but they aren't exactly the FBI load.
 
Another way is to reload your own !! I know some will say NO WAY to reloads for sd&hd but I scrutinize every aspect of my sd&hd under 5X magnification & use only new brass & don`t load it at production speeds!!!

I cast these from Isotope lead Soft Stuff!!

102_0012.jpg
 
Remington R38S12, Winchester X38SPD and Federal #38E (I think that's the Federal Part #) are all 158gr LSWC/HP +P ammo and are all still available. The Remington offering is best for short barrel revolvers because the alloy used in the bullet is softer and will reliable expand at the lower velocities associated with a short barrel. I think Federal has stopped producing their FBI load but I'm sure both Remington and Winchester are still current stock items.

I usually have my local gun shop order them for me when I need more...
 
Just a comment re quotes. Confederate quoted my remarks re GA Arms rounds - which are harder - and cheaper - and great practice rounds. I also stated that I carry the Remington R38S12 versions. Please don't cherry pick my comments, you'll miss the full story. The two mentioned are similar ballistically - as I have chrono-ed them with the same chrono the range used for IPSC, etc measurements. The GA Arms rounds are a fraction of the Remi cost, too. Good practice ammo for a great self protection round.

Stainz
 
Stainz,
That's good info on the Georgia Arms ammo, I haven't tried them yet. I usually try to replicate my carry ammo for practice but there are times it would be good to have some extra ammo on hand. Thanks again for the info...
 
good performing 38 ammo is very hard to find in these parts. McBride's is the big shop and they have some stuff but it is iffy. I too would like to find some more 158 grain.

on a personal note, Scottishclaymore, do not marry anyone if you have to ask permission to do things
 
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