in the past i've always used the mushrooming type bullet in 30-06 for deer hunting and has work well most of the time. the ballistic tips do more damage and that's what i prefer. i was wondering why people don't really use the fragmenting rounds that are design to explode to take bigger game like deer? last year i used the hornady tap 55gr in .223 caliber and shot a mid size deer while it was prone. from the rumors i heard that the fragmenting rounds will not get enough penetration and may blow up on the skin, well turns out the deer didn't move at all after i shot it and when we cut it open, the heart and lungs were like jello, not the mention the bullet passed all the way through and the impact shattered one of the front shoulder blades. pretty amazing damage, looks promising, imagine a bigger round. is it just too much carnage?
fragmenting round for deer?
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jimmyraythomason
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Well it also has to be legal to hunt with and here in Alabama only mushrooming bullets are allowed for deer hunting. So the answer to your question is,no I've never hunted with fragmenting bullets.
Arkansas Paul
Member
How far away was the deer that you shot with the BT that the insides were like jello? I have experienced this as well with both a .280 Rem and a .30-06 with the same results. But all of my kills that produced that much damage were all taken inside of 50 yards. Ballistic tips are for shots where long range is the rule. They are designed to expand at low velocities, so guess what happens when they're fired on game at short distances, thus impacting at high velocities? Massive damage.
As for fragmenting rounds, well, even with thin skinned game like whitetails, some penetration is neccessary. If you took a shot at anything but extremely close range, you would run the risk of the bullet not achieving enough penetration to get to the vitals.
Just my 0.02
As for fragmenting rounds, well, even with thin skinned game like whitetails, some penetration is neccessary. If you took a shot at anything but extremely close range, you would run the risk of the bullet not achieving enough penetration to get to the vitals.
Just my 0.02
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
As you found out, they may be devastating with a shot through the ribs to the lungs.
But what happens if you are off a little, and hit the shoulder joint first??
A controlled expansion hunting bullet will go on through the bone.
A varmint bullet may not, and then you have a horrendously wounded deer running away on three legs and dragging the forth one.
To die a slow and painful death a long ways away.
rc
But what happens if you are off a little, and hit the shoulder joint first??
A controlled expansion hunting bullet will go on through the bone.
A varmint bullet may not, and then you have a horrendously wounded deer running away on three legs and dragging the forth one.
To die a slow and painful death a long ways away.
rc
I only use hollowpoint fragmenting target rounds on Texas sized deer. Core-lokts on anything bigger.
I have never had a deer run off since switching from mushrooming to fragmenting shot through the boiler room.
The difference is from yours is I use Hornady 190 grain hollowpoint reloads (reloading manual recipe, nothing exotic) in my 30-06 instead of the 165 gr. core-lokts.
I did use a core-lokt on my last deer and while it was lung shot through and through it took three men an hour to find it because the deer's blood trail was misleading because it ran about a sixty yards through brush then doubled back into the thicker woodlot he came out of.
A fragmenting round may Cuisinart® a deer's insides but not leave a blood trail if it doesn't exit and becomes necessary to trail him. That's why I like the 190 grain because while it fragments the inertia of that chunk of lead is going to leave two holes and a second sucking wound and bleed out hole.
I'd still use a core-lokt on a thick skinned, big boned elk or hog but for the most part our Texas deer don't hit 130 pounds with a full belly.
Bexar
I have never had a deer run off since switching from mushrooming to fragmenting shot through the boiler room.
The difference is from yours is I use Hornady 190 grain hollowpoint reloads (reloading manual recipe, nothing exotic) in my 30-06 instead of the 165 gr. core-lokts.
I did use a core-lokt on my last deer and while it was lung shot through and through it took three men an hour to find it because the deer's blood trail was misleading because it ran about a sixty yards through brush then doubled back into the thicker woodlot he came out of.
A fragmenting round may Cuisinart® a deer's insides but not leave a blood trail if it doesn't exit and becomes necessary to trail him. That's why I like the 190 grain because while it fragments the inertia of that chunk of lead is going to leave two holes and a second sucking wound and bleed out hole.
I'd still use a core-lokt on a thick skinned, big boned elk or hog but for the most part our Texas deer don't hit 130 pounds with a full belly.
Bexar
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Of course you did.
But it didn't run far did it?
And there was a good blood trail all the way to the dead deer wasn't there?
Heart or lung shot game animals almost always run a short distance to die unless you break the spine or make a brain shot.
They have enough oxygen in their blood to go 50 - 100 yards without a working heart or lungs.
rc
You add adrenaline to a four second sprint and yep a hundred yards ain't out of the question. A good heart shot if done on a full heart or a pump stroke with a high velocity round can cause a cerebral hemorrhage, effectively equivalent to a head shot.
Two holes gotta be better than one and anything over 2500 feet a second is gonna cause a surgeon's nightmare; even a full metal jacket. The longer the bullet the more chance for tumbling or pushing on through dense structure. This is what makes the 100 grain .243 and at 3000 fps plus and the 140 grain 260 at about 2750 fps so hunter friendly.
The problem I see and I am not being critical of a man's choice of caliber, he probably knows his limitations, is that a .223 fragmenting round is probably not going to leave a positive blood trail. It is going to create a 22 caliber entrance wound which probably seals pretty quick and no exit so all the bleed out, while it may be massive, is internal.
To each his own, and this guy might have the skills to track a deer back to where it was born.
I refuse to be critical of any man's caliber choice. I don't even pretend to be that arrogant.
I will suggest if asked.
Bexar
Two holes gotta be better than one and anything over 2500 feet a second is gonna cause a surgeon's nightmare; even a full metal jacket. The longer the bullet the more chance for tumbling or pushing on through dense structure. This is what makes the 100 grain .243 and at 3000 fps plus and the 140 grain 260 at about 2750 fps so hunter friendly.
The problem I see and I am not being critical of a man's choice of caliber, he probably knows his limitations, is that a .223 fragmenting round is probably not going to leave a positive blood trail. It is going to create a 22 caliber entrance wound which probably seals pretty quick and no exit so all the bleed out, while it may be massive, is internal.
To each his own, and this guy might have the skills to track a deer back to where it was born.
I refuse to be critical of any man's caliber choice. I don't even pretend to be that arrogant.
I will suggest if asked.
Bexar
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Arkansas Paul
Member
Contrary to what a lot of people think, deer don't always drop where they stand. A lot of people have this misconception. I killed a six point with a Core Lockt bullet last year and I thought I had missed it completely because there was no blood trail. It was a quartering shot and the bullet didn't exit. It took out the heart and one lung, and the deer ran about 60 yards before expiring. Usually when people go on and on about how their deer always drop where they stand, they're trying to promote their favorite round. Sorry, it just doesn't always work that way.
If you slip a varmint round between the ribs and it comes apart in the vitals it will probably be fatal - sometimes spectacularly so.
The problem is if you hit a rib, the bullet may do what it was designed to do - come apart and make a nasty surface wound that won't be fatal until infection sets in.
Use a decent 150 grain softpoint - Core Lokt, Power Point or Power Shok. They are designed to work on deer and they do it well.
The problem is if you hit a rib, the bullet may do what it was designed to do - come apart and make a nasty surface wound that won't be fatal until infection sets in.
Use a decent 150 grain softpoint - Core Lokt, Power Point or Power Shok. They are designed to work on deer and they do it well.
Todd1700
Member
Agreed. Anybody that says every amimal they have shot went straight down either hasn't shot many animals, has always gone for a head shot or is a terrible liar.
Fragmenting varmit rounds can do terrible internal damage and cause some spectacular looking dropped right there kills when all goes well but you are playing with fire using them on large game in light weight calibers like a 223. Trust me, things can go very badly if you hit a heavy bone like the shoulder joint with one. They can and will occasionally blow up on a shoulder bone and not get into the vitals. They also rarely give you an exit hole which is usually the one that's going to put the most blood on the ground for tracking.
Light weight fragmenting type round + high velocity = highly variable sometimes disasterous results on large game.
Grumulkin
Member
Where you hit the deer is a lot more important that what you hit it with but the latter is also important. I'm not claiming that all my deer were DRT but:
1. I've shot 3 deer in the lungs with Argentine military ammo (soft point) out of a 308 Win. I got pretty cheap (if I remember from Cheaper-Than-Dirt). All of them were bang flops so there must be something about that ammo that's pretty good and I wish I could get more.
2. Out of the 4 deer I've taken this year, 3 were bang flop neck shots.
So, rather than agonize over what bullet you're using, think more about putting it where it belongs. If you don't want the deer going anywhere, put the bullet in the neck.
1. I've shot 3 deer in the lungs with Argentine military ammo (soft point) out of a 308 Win. I got pretty cheap (if I remember from Cheaper-Than-Dirt). All of them were bang flops so there must be something about that ammo that's pretty good and I wish I could get more.
2. Out of the 4 deer I've taken this year, 3 were bang flop neck shots.
So, rather than agonize over what bullet you're using, think more about putting it where it belongs. If you don't want the deer going anywhere, put the bullet in the neck.
scythefwd
Member
You had a matchking fragment?
The Sierra Match King hollow points have very thin jackets. Sierra used to, and they still may, warn not to use the MKs for hunting as their jacket and core are not designed for hunting bullet mushrooming expansion. The jackets on the MKs are thinner to reduce the possibility of the bullets axial center line and rifling axial center line being different producing a wobble type effect when shot. The jackets on the hunting bullets are thicker. Sierra warns that their MKs may come apart when striking an animal. From personal experience on Texas sized deer their bullets will do just that. Using the 190 grain MK's in .30 caliber there is still a big enough chunk of lead even with the jacket and core breaking apart to blow out through the other side of a boiler room shot deer.
Using the longer 190 grain hollowpoint also presents a possibility of bullet tumbling as the front of the bullet starts to slow down and the heavier rear portion wants to keep going under it's own inertia. This rotation will further cause a bullet to be exposed to hydrostatic pressures it is not designed to withstand. In rotation a long .30 caliber diameter bullet becomes an approximately inch and a quarter diameter less longer bullet. This will cause massive energy dump and fragmentation.
I would not recommend this bullet choice on anything except deer configured broadside in the boiler room shot deer.
Bexar
Using the longer 190 grain hollowpoint also presents a possibility of bullet tumbling as the front of the bullet starts to slow down and the heavier rear portion wants to keep going under it's own inertia. This rotation will further cause a bullet to be exposed to hydrostatic pressures it is not designed to withstand. In rotation a long .30 caliber diameter bullet becomes an approximately inch and a quarter diameter less longer bullet. This will cause massive energy dump and fragmentation.
I would not recommend this bullet choice on anything except deer configured broadside in the boiler room shot deer.
Bexar
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In DIM's case the skull probably shattered from hydrostatic shock aided by the original fracturing of the skull. The skulls 'explosion', if you will, was contained by the tough skin surrounding the skull. A slow motion video would probably show a pretty dramatic representation of an expansion and collapse of a rapidly expanding and then deflating leather balloon.
Bexar
Bexar
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Fragmenting rounds on game animals are a very stupid idea. Why in the world would anybody use a round that severely limits their shot angel and makes you limit your shots to only perfect soft sided presentation?
A deer running off after being hit in the lungs or heart is no a bullet failure. The reason most things run off after being is hit is that we have a skewed view of proper shot placement in this country. Shoot a little farther forward and a little higher and your critter will cease to do a death run and simply fall right there. And yes you will loose about bit of shoulder meat doing so. But really who cares? You'll lose less animals in the long run.
A deer running off after being hit in the lungs or heart is no a bullet failure. The reason most things run off after being is hit is that we have a skewed view of proper shot placement in this country. Shoot a little farther forward and a little higher and your critter will cease to do a death run and simply fall right there. And yes you will loose about bit of shoulder meat doing so. But really who cares? You'll lose less animals in the long run.
desidog
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Que? "hit in the lungs or heart" vs. "a little farther forward and a little higher"
Are you advocating Not going for the vitals?
A deer might run off if the projectile was an FMJ; but not an HP or SP...that's loader/shooter's choice, not the bullet's failure. No expansion means less friction which means less energy transference, which means less hydrostatic shock, which means less lethality. Unlike getting cut with an arrow and bleeding to death, getting hit with a bullet that delivers massive shock should turn off the lights immediately regardless of wound-channel size or bleeding potential.
See my thread here on shooting a yote with my .243: a good hit with the wrong projectile....it was not my finest hour.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=503773
Since then i hit a coyote in the head with a 75gr Vmax; .243" entrance, and the other side was an open mess...empty brain cavity and the lower jaw hanging half off.
As far as fragmentation, if you're going to eat it, I'd recommend something that does the job with less mess, ie 1 hole; and this will save you the investment of a metal-detector for all those pesky bits that might cost a fortune in dental work if you munch one.
konfederate.kowboy
Member
I have to say I agree scooping out blood jello isn't fun. And I have shot deer with .223 and don't think it to small but they make soft point and even hollow points just save the fragmenting bullets for the zombies.
konfederate.kowboy
Member
I have to say I agree scooping out blood jello isn't fun. And I have shot deer with .223 and don't think it to small but they make soft point and even hollow points just save the fragmenting bullets for the zombies.
I actually did try to find if bullet mushroomed, but I recovered only small pieces of led and copper... the 155 gr SMK I used had its meplat trimmed maybe that aided in the fragmentation who knows.... As I recall I used 45 grains of IMR4064 which proved to group nice 2.8" at 500 yards...
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No I am not I am suggesting that you aim a bit forward and a bit higher than the traditional American shot placement of low and behind the shoulder. Which will in fact take both lungs and the vascular "spaghetti" junction above the heart. It also tends to completely shut off the front quarters making a death run impossible.
Desidog
Incorrect sir. I don't care what you hit them with, a shot even one that completely destroys the heart and lungs does not guarantee a dear which flops to the ground. In fact many times the reaction from a heart shot animal even with an explosively expanding round is to blindly rush off for up to several hundred yards before tipping over. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times.
A study was done on first shot tip overs and the conclusion was that a heart shot animal sometimes drops on the spot and sometimes doesn't depending on where in the heart the animal was hit. A low heart shot tended to not drop the animal and in fact several have been alive for a very long time with a hole in the lower heart.
The other major factor was if the heart was full of blood (diastole)or empty (systole) when the heart is relaxed and full of blood a bullet through the body of the heart tends to have an explosive and dramatic reaction often producing a severe stroke through hydrostatic referred shock to the brain. Basically an over pressure of the cardiovascular system. Having nearly the same effect as a brain shot.
If however the heart is empty when passing a bullet through the heart mussel the animal will tend to run off for a short distance before dying of asphyxia I.E. the inability to oxygenate the brain and organs due to the failure of the heart. Which is why many times a heart shot animal will rear up and paw at the sky or do one last death leap before collapsing. The lack of oxygen to the brain causes the animal to lose vision or "gray out" while still conscious just before death. Which is why they often crash into trees or brush during the death run the eyes are a heavy oxygen user and they give out before the critter does.
Also many animals that are heart shot that do a death run will not leave a blood trail. They can't because the heart has been destroyed to the point that it can not pump anymore therefore it does not have the ability to spray blood out of the wounds. I've found several animals that hunters have given up on because they were sure they hit but couldn't find any blood so they quit. When I put my dogs on it we generally find them within 200 yards in thick brush with a destroyed heart and very little or no blood trail.
A shot that takes out the vascular process above the heart will leave a 4 start blood trail because the heart muscle is still pumping. This shot also perforates both lungs and shocks or breaks the front shoulders. Making a death run pretty tough to do. Many times when I hit an animal in this manner they simply rear up on the hind legs and tip over.
Of course in the real world we very seldom are presented with a perfect standing broadside shot so we have to deal with many factors which make it necessary to use a bullet that has some penetration. Which of course comes back to my original statement that using a super explosive fragmenting bullet on big game is a really stupid idea.
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