fragmenting round for deer?
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Would you mind being a little more specific as to whom your attempt at marginalization is directed at?
Bexar
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Well lets see...
So far we've decided that shot placement isn't important so we should make up for lousy shooting with explosive bullets.
That we should only make head shots and that Match King is the right hammer for the job. Even if they are so flimsy they won't exit on a deers skull....YGBSM!!
And goll durn it even if Sierra the people who make the Match King are very direct and very stern in their warning not use Match Kings for hunting. On the internet they become a great hunting bullet because some guy has killed a couple of deer with them.
And finally we should use a .45-70 to make up for lousy shot placement because it has .153 more diameter than a .308 and that is somehow going to make a difference if we can't shoot?
If I told you how many critters I've killed between sport hunting and culling you wouldn't believe me. So instead I'll just say that I've killed and seen enough killed to have figured out what works and what doesn't. A decent bullet in the right spot one with which you can increase your shot opportunities due to having a bit of penetration is the key.
You simply can not make up for poor placement.
Who said shot placement wasn't important or did you just imagine that?
Who said that we should only make head shots or did you just imagine that?
And when lousy shot placement did occur did the mushrooming bullet compensate for that or did you not read that post?
Who said that Sierra does not recommend their SMK bullets for hunting before you mentioned almost verbatim that statement or did you just fail to read that?
Who agreed with Sierra's statement that using their SMK's for other than a very specific case compensating for the fragmenting loss of mass with a heavier longer bullet or did you also fail to read that?
I suspect Sierra is referencing a general usage of their SMK bullets over their Game King bullets for hunting in general and rightfully so.
How many posters acknowledged the jello/soup effect of using a fragmenting bullet or do you consider these other posters as inexperienced and all subordinate to you based on their experiences and observations?
And who was it that said, Fragmenting rounds on game animals are a very stupid idea. Why in the world would anybody use a round that severely limits their shot angel (sic) and makes you limit your shots to only perfect soft sided presentation? and the logic that you used that we should use the largest frontal area on a bullet such as on a 45-70 to "not severely limits their shot angel" (sic)(angle)
And last but certainly not least...when and where did you answer the OP's original question about, imagine a bigger round. is it just too much carnage? or did you miss that too while contradicting your own statements such as: post #19 The reason most things run off after being is hit is that we have a skewed view of proper shot placement in this country (Would that be America?). Shoot a little farther forward and a little higher and your critter will cease to do a death run and simply fall right there. post #25 No I am not I am suggesting that you aim a bit forward and a bit higher than the traditional American shot placement of low and behind the shoulder. or are you simply confused about what you said?
Bexar
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The matchking might make a mess of the critter's innards,and any meat that happens to be near the impact area. I've seen a hollow-point round turn a doe's innards into mushy soup, and it took forever to get it cleaned up and on our way. A good soft-point that reliably penetrates through bone and through each side with some expansion does the job quite well, and without the mess. And I'd rather have the soft point in case I hit a really thick bone, because I want that round to break that bone and keep going for full penetration.
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Bexar,
Thank you for the spelling corrections we are all better off for it. I always get angel and angle mixed up but I won't anymore, I promise.
BTW Post 19 and Post 25 say EXACTLY the same thing. Reread them and you'll see what I am talking about. Simply place a comma after "No I am not" in post 25 and it should make sense to you.
And yes since my location is Colorado USA when I say this country I would being
referring to the USA. (United States of America) in case there is any further confusion.
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Fremmer,
I agree and that's all I am saying as well. But be careful when defining a hollow point these day there are some hollow points that are serious penetrating critters, like the Barnes TSX or the new Nosler monolithic bullet or the Hornandy GMX they are all hollow points by definition.
Thank you for the spelling corrections we are all better off for it. I always get angel and angle mixed up but I won't anymore, I promise.
BTW Post 19 and Post 25 say EXACTLY the same thing. Reread them and you'll see what I am talking about. Simply place a comma after "No I am not" in post 25 and it should make sense to you.
And yes since my location is Colorado USA when I say this country I would being
referring to the USA. (United States of America) in case there is any further confusion.
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Fremmer,
I agree and that's all I am saying as well. But be careful when defining a hollow point these day there are some hollow points that are serious penetrating critters, like the Barnes TSX or the new Nosler monolithic bullet or the Hornandy GMX they are all hollow points by definition.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I've never shot an elk or an elephant, but between my deer and friends' deer, I've been in on the "autopsy" of somewhere beyond a hundred. Probably a dozen different cartridges, through the years.
SFAIK, I'm the only guy in the group that ever used what I'd call a fragmenting bullet. .243; the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. But there's a great big "however": I only took neck shots or 90º cross-body heart/lung shots, and limited myself to shots inside of 200 yards. Probably 90% neck shots.
For general purpose deer hunting, where you don't really know what angle may present itself when Bambi jumps up to run, I think that a fragmenting bullet is a foolish choice. My opinion is that controlled expansion and good penetration are the parameters for one's selection of a bullet--and there's a gazillion of them out there.
I dunno. If you're picky about your shot, figuring on "up close and personal" which to me is anything inside of a hundred yards, I see no real reason to care what kind of bullet is used for a head or neck shot. It's just meat for the pot, is all. DRT, fun's over, work begins.
And so, chilluns, we're back to "No one size fits all." It's all about circumstances and intent.
SFAIK, I'm the only guy in the group that ever used what I'd call a fragmenting bullet. .243; the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. But there's a great big "however": I only took neck shots or 90º cross-body heart/lung shots, and limited myself to shots inside of 200 yards. Probably 90% neck shots.
For general purpose deer hunting, where you don't really know what angle may present itself when Bambi jumps up to run, I think that a fragmenting bullet is a foolish choice. My opinion is that controlled expansion and good penetration are the parameters for one's selection of a bullet--and there's a gazillion of them out there.
I dunno. If you're picky about your shot, figuring on "up close and personal" which to me is anything inside of a hundred yards, I see no real reason to care what kind of bullet is used for a head or neck shot. It's just meat for the pot, is all. DRT, fun's over, work begins.
And so, chilluns, we're back to "No one size fits all." It's all about circumstances and intent.
So have we come to a conclusion while some of have still not answered TRIGGA's question and others posts and questions that the correct bullet is the one the individual hunter prefers to use based on their needs and experiences being limited only to legal issues?
My Dad, forty+ years ago, said the best rounds he ever used to try and kill a bunch of deer, (He said, Elk.(?)) were 50 caliber ball fired from a Browning machine gun mounted on the back of his jeep during WWII. He and his driver had stumbled across a field of deer while looking for places to run communications lines. He was trying to get fresh meat for his men. I asked him how many deer (Elk) he killed and he said, "None, but it was damn sure fun trying!"
Later they took the jeep back out and a rifle and brought in some deer.
Bexar
My Dad, forty+ years ago, said the best rounds he ever used to try and kill a bunch of deer, (He said, Elk.(?)) were 50 caliber ball fired from a Browning machine gun mounted on the back of his jeep during WWII. He and his driver had stumbled across a field of deer while looking for places to run communications lines. He was trying to get fresh meat for his men. I asked him how many deer (Elk) he killed and he said, "None, but it was damn sure fun trying!"
Later they took the jeep back out and a rifle and brought in some deer.
Bexar
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Bexar,
You'll find that on these sites there will never be a group conclusion on just about anything. Even the most obviously correct answer to you won't be when it comes to another persons personal experiences and thoughts.
But there is usually a tidbit or two of useful information that you can pick up somewhere in most of these threads.
Yep, Hunter I finally couldn't agree with you more...you have definitely been oblivious to the obvious answer.
Sorry Bud. This discussion of match vs controlled expansion is repeated over and over all over the Internet; it has even been discussed several times previously on this very forum.
I would be willing to bet the .223 for deer has barely been discussed more.
This is an excellent forum. Thanks for having me.
Bexar
BADUNAME37
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I may try my 22-250 for shots just like the ones you listed, good neck shots, or 90 degree cross-shot through the ribs and vitals. I see what this bullet does to a woodchuck and to a coyote. Next deer season, this rifle is coming off the rack.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"This discussion of match vs controlled expansion is repeated over and over all over the Internet..."
True, and it appears from reading that it's quite often confusing to newbies.
My personal problem with this sort of discussion derives from "doing what my daddy did"--but for me that started sixty years ago. He showed me what worked well; I found that it worked well. So, if something ain't broke, why fix it?
I thus don't spend much time worrying about other folks' notions. If they're happy, I'm happy.
If Bambi's lying on the ground all green-eyed, without having moved much from when he was shot, I figure the shooter did a righteous deal. Time for a beer...
True, and it appears from reading that it's quite often confusing to newbies.
My personal problem with this sort of discussion derives from "doing what my daddy did"--but for me that started sixty years ago. He showed me what worked well; I found that it worked well. So, if something ain't broke, why fix it?
I thus don't spend much time worrying about other folks' notions. If they're happy, I'm happy.
If Bambi's lying on the ground all green-eyed, without having moved much from when he was shot, I figure the shooter did a righteous deal. Time for a beer...
Yep, Sir.
I have found that after too many years in the discretionary sporting goods industry that people will spend a tremendous amount of money trying to buy "skill".
Rarely does something come along that is a game changer in itself such as the transition from blackpowder to smokeless powder.
Marketing directors have to sell their new products and try to make us believe that without this new Wunderbanger we'll never kill another deer, duck or dragon.
If I ever had to choose only one gun...one cartridge...one round it would be a hundred plus year old designed 1903 in 30-06 shooting 180 gr Core-Lokts. I'd never need to fear no man, no beast or no hunger.
Bexar
Beware the man that only owns one gun; he's likely to know how to use it.
Wyatt Earp
Wyatt Earp
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center shot
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Any bullet designed for the 30-30 will be devastating at 30-06 velocities.
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